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Valve clearances and Camshafts  Rating:  Rating
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 Posted: 03-14-2007 10:42 pm
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DeDub
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I'm setting my valves for the 1st time and am looking for a supply of shims to play with.  Most of the ones I need I don't have because the PO, like so many others, it sounds, used gaskets under the cam towers.  Between that and most of my clearances being too small already, I need all new shims and I'm not even sure exactly which ones.  So buying a few dozen that I may not use is a bit daunting financially.  Anyone have a personal supply they want to share.  I'm glad to pay for the favor.

David

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 Posted: 03-14-2007 11:49 pm
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smcmanus
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List what shims you need and maybe someone can help.  I have some I can't use.  Also, Delta has them at a reasonable cost. 

Have a nice day

Steve

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 Posted: 03-15-2007 06:22 pm
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DeDub
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I am tentatively looking for the following cam bucket shims, in thousandhts:

60 X 2
64 X 2
65 X 2
67 X 2
69
72
73
81
95

and undoubtedly several others around these numbers, as I removed the existing gaskets under the cam towers and shrunk the clearances to the point that I can't measure them any more with my existing shims.

If I was sure of exactly what I needed, I'd just buy them from the company store, but I'm only guessing here and would love to find someone with a selection I can play with.

TIA,

David

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 Posted: 03-15-2007 07:08 pm
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Greg Fletcher
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Hmmm, that is a bit of a problem. Ideally, you would get your trusty machine shop doing your vavle job to check the length of the valve stems and, being the great guys that they are, they would grind them to the exact length to put you in an ideal shim range, between .070 and .080". In reality, most shops don't care and don't check this which is why you need to tell them ahead of time (or better yet use a great shop like West Coast Cylinder Head). If you have no clearance now for a gauge, you'll need to do some careful filing of the stem. Probably best to take it back and it have done right to insure the material removed is all at right angles to the base. I do have a box of used shims I can loan you, not sure if all the sizes are there, send me an email on that.

BTW, the JHPS 104 cams are 0.432" lift and 268 degrees duration but with 235 degrees duration at 0.040" lash. These will give slightly better torque than most of the profiles out there.

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 Posted: 03-16-2007 06:43 am
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Dan Eiland
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I just came in from the garage where I have been measuring all the shims just to make sure what thickness they are before I reinstalled my cam carriers. With my cam carriers torqued down, I began measuring some of the clearances. I have the Delta 104 cams and I have no idea who did the valve job, but there is a lot of space that has to be made up. So far I have only looked at four of the intake valves from the first two cylinders. If I set my clearance at 0.007 I would need oversize shims on all my valves from the measurements I'm currently getting. Starting from the front of the engine here is my list of shims I would need to have .007 clearance on the first four intake valves: one - 0.145" shim; one - 0.139" shim; and two - 0.142" shims. I hope they make shims in these sizes or I'm going to have to buy all new valves even though mine are brand new.

 

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 Posted: 03-16-2007 12:32 pm
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smcmanus
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Ouch! The parts book says shims are available from .060 to .130 of an inch.  This creates a situation for which I know not the answer.  The cams you have are probably regrinds which took off a lot of metal to get the desired profile.  Maybe someone has some over-sized shims or some uncut cams available.

My problem was the opposite.  I have the stock(?) cams and removed the gaskets when I fiddled with the valves.  I needed smaller shims but was fortunately they were available. 

Good Luck

Steve

 

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 Posted: 03-16-2007 04:17 pm
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Jensen Healey
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Dan, remove the gaskets and give them to Steve. ;-)

Dedub, I have 86 shims if you want to borrow them. Just bring along your first born as a deposit for their safe return. Send me a message.

Kurt

San Anselmo

Last edited on 03-16-2007 05:16 pm by Jensen Healey

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 Posted: 03-16-2007 04:21 pm
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DeDub
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I've got a set I just took off, too.  How many will you need to stack up to get within shim range?  8)

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 Posted: 03-16-2007 04:59 pm
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Greg Fletcher
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This topic comes up fairly often. Although not recommended, shims do come up to .150" and owners have used them without problems from what I've heard. I have also heard of owners getting customs shims made by a machinist in even larger sizes.

Alternately, it is possible to machine the cam towers about .060" or so to get into a smaller shim range. This has been done many times in the past without any issues I know about, and certainly has something to be said as a solution. Keep in mind that technically you are changing the cam center line angles, even it's ever so slightly, so my first inclination would be to fix the head by getting oversized valves to start with. Then again used JH cam towers are pretty common and it should be easy to fix at a later date when it needs to be done again.

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 Posted: 03-16-2007 06:08 pm
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Dan Eiland
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Greg, good suggestion on having my cam towers shaved to get into some more common shim sizes. This would be simple enough and not too costly. At a later date if I needed a valve job again could'nt I just have the valve stem heights adjusted to fit? Seems cheaper than purchasing new towers, especially when you have the newer style Lotus cam towers.

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 Posted: 03-16-2007 06:23 pm
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Greg Fletcher
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Changing the engine geometery is not an ideal fix, but it's certainly a cheap fix considering the alternatives.

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 Posted: 03-16-2007 07:47 pm
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Dan Eiland
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I haven't checked, but could the newer cam towers be taller than my old ones?

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 Posted: 03-16-2007 09:07 pm
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smcmanus
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If the head is coming off, you could grind the valve seats to drop the valves a little and tighten up your clearances.  

If you are leaving the head in place, I think the thick shims are the best solution.

Good Luck

Steve

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 Posted: 03-17-2007 03:18 am
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LambandAndy
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David,

I removed my gaskets and had a machinist buddy surface grind 8 shims down to 0.060" (minimum recommended) that I used to figure out what I needed to order. 

Note: DO NOT surface grind shims to run in the engine.  I believe that they are case hardened and you will grind off the hardening (Someone correct me if I am wrong).

I still have them and if you e-mail me (limey01@aol.com) your mailing address would gladly send them to you (or anyone else that could use them).

Andy 15223

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 Posted: 03-17-2007 05:05 am
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Dan Eiland
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Greg please do something about the way the message board wipes things out when you go to retrieve a photo or if the photo size is too large and you go to fix it and come back and your entire message is gone. There is no telling how many great posts have been dropped because one does not want to type it 10 times because it gets wiped out everytime something comes up.

I went to look at a photo I was going to share with some great information I found out today and my entire message was gone when I came back to the message board. I retyped the message only to have it wiped out again when the photo exceeded the boards size limit. Not worth the bother.

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 Posted: 03-17-2007 08:07 am
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Jensen Healey
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I learned to do a right click copy so I can paste it back in if it gets lost.

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 Posted: 03-17-2007 06:34 pm
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Dan Eiland
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Since my 104 cams came from Delta Motorsports I called and spoke with Jim Medland yesterday about my camshaft/valve clearance issues and he fixed me right up. He explained that the oversized shims are required on most reprofiled cams so he had just what I needed in stock. I ended up replacing all 16 shims with 10 differnet sizes ranging from 0.141 to 0.158. I think I wiped him out of some of the sizes I needed. I should have the new shims by Monday or Tuesday so I can finish up my engine.

I have to admit that the shims take a lot of time to get right. I need to thank everyone for their advice and thoughts on the subject. I took Mark's advice and went back and measured every shim I had and it turned out that some were no longer the same size as the label had indicated. I used my Digital Micrometer (DM) and my Dial Caliper (DC) to check every shim. This ensured I double checked every measurement and it helped me round off the sizes to the nearest 1000ths since the DM goes to 5/10000ths accuracy. I recorder every measurement and labled every valve so I will know where all the shims go when they get here.

Now I will have to tackle rebuilding my Dellorto carburetors next.  Have attached a photo of the engine partly back together. I'll send another when it is done.

Just a note that you can see in the photo where I enlarged the water opening in the block from the pump through the block into the area surrounding all the liners. I also added the port to the rear of the head for better water circulation.

Attachment: 2.2L going back together.jpg (Downloaded 84 times)

Last edited on 03-17-2007 06:39 pm by Dan Eiland

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 Posted: 03-21-2007 06:48 am
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Dan Eiland
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Just an update-

My shims came in tonite so hopefully I'll be able to install them tomorrow.

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 Posted: 03-22-2007 07:31 am
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Dan Eiland
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How critical is it that the clearances be exactly according to the book? My measurements must have been off by a thousandths or two due to stacking feeler guages to take measurements. I was going for the high side of the stated clearances (.007 In; .012 Ex) and now I have a bunch that are off by .001 to .003. Should I just bite the bullit and re-order to correct this. The shims are cheap enough so the cost is not an issue. Also, should I make sure all the In valves are set at 007 and all the ex at 012 or it really does not matter as long as they are between the set specs? I have heard that the valve clearances tighten up over time. How true is this? Thanks for everyones input.

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 Posted: 03-22-2007 04:48 pm
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Greg Fletcher
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Your clearance will tighten over time, always best to be on the high side. In the dealer days, I've heard that mechanics would often shim the exhausts as much as 0.014" to keep everything within range over a longer time. I always shoot for 0.012 on the exhausts.

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