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 Posted: 01-30-2018 01:14 pm
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stuartmorgan
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Hi all
Stu here from Melbourne OZ, with the Tangerine 4 speed #13556
Ok I haven't posted for a while, but I could sure use some help
Right, my tail of Woe:
Got a leak between 4speed and engine. Research said either rear main seal,or trans seal
Was also told if trans, only way to do seal on 4 speed is pull box out, so...
I bought new rear main seal, trans shaft seal and joining gasket and did the transmission mount while I was at it, so all done. Actually I didn't think the seals looked that bad, but it was starting to leak a lot of oil from this region clutch was ok when I broke it down
Ok, all goes back, run the car on hoist, get it hot and test all gears, it's all good, no leaks etc etc
Next day intake it for a longer run and my god, after all this it's leaking again, almost cried, what the hell? So I need to start again, any clues before I go bananas
Cheers
Stu

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 Posted: 01-30-2018 01:29 pm
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Jim Ketcham
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Flywheel to crankshaft bolts are straight thread and must have sealant on them or they will let oil pass. I had this issue years ago.
Good Luck,
Jim

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 Posted: 01-30-2018 06:02 pm
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Esprit2
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The JH Workshop manual doesn't mention using any sealant or threadlocker on the flywheel bolts. And Jim is correct, oil can wick past un-sealed threads, and onto the friction surface/ clutch side of the flywheel.

The early Lotus manuals specify applying Loctite AV to the 'hole threads', then inserting the bolts. AV is a Mil-spec Threadlocker that is regional, and not available everywhere. It's unlikely that you'll find it in any retail hardware or auto parts stores, but your local Industrial Supply might have it. Ask for Loctite Item Number 087**. The last two digits (**) indicate the package size.

Later, Lotus manuals specify Permabond A134; however, Permabond products are not marketed in North America. Loctite alternatives are 275 and 277. All are high strength Threadlockers that may require heat for removal. That seems a little overkill to me, but that's what is specified.

Regards,
Tim Engel

Last edited on 01-30-2018 06:06 pm by Esprit2

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 Posted: 01-31-2018 01:35 am
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redracer
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Besides the above mentioned flywheel bolts(I use #2 Permatex and teflon tape on the upper threads), you may want to be sure the oil thrower doesn't have one of its "fingers" between the housing and block. The "5 o'clock" finger is notorious for getting wedged there, and will cause a bad leak.
When replacing the seal housing, be sure to look up from underneath as you put the bolts in. A couple of extra long bolts just to align the the housing may be helpful.

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 Posted: 01-31-2018 07:43 am
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Tim Murphy
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Redracer,(or anyone else)do you have a picture or diagram of what you are describing. Or maybe you can explain it more for those of us who are less familiar with the engine internals. I am not even sure what the oil thrower is nor its fingers. I do recall a picture in the shop manual that had a vague diagram that may be what you are talking about. Thanks

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 Posted: 01-31-2018 11:07 am
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SimonD
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I too have gearbox leaks and have it out - it's with a local gearbox specialist. Does anyone know where I could get parts in the UK? I'm told I need a 4th gear synchromesh and a shaft.

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 Posted: 01-31-2018 02:19 pm
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redracer
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You may start with Martin Robey; Richard Appleyard used to supply parts but I don't know if he still works on them. Then Cropredy Bridge(used to be mainly Interceptors)?
Of all the s4 synchromeshes, 4th gear is the one least used, so I suspect your tm. was rebuilt once before(very often we will use the 4th gear one to replace another one due to the lack of use).

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 Posted: 01-31-2018 05:52 pm
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answerman
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Back to the leak: I haven't seen anyone else mention this.

Regarding the rear main seal (assuming it's not an early rope seal), words of wisdom from Arvin Appleman from when I replaced mine: "When you install the seal make sure you hold it back aprox. 0.100" or it will leak like a sieve."

What I did to accomplish this was to take two blank CDs (they don't have to be blank, that's just what I had) and use them as a spacer when installing the seal. I measured two CDs at .095" thick. It seemed to work well.

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 Posted: 02-01-2018 08:24 am
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Esprit2
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Tim Murphy wrote:
Redracer,(or anyone else)do you have a picture or diagram of what you are describing. Or maybe you can explain it more for those of us who are less familiar with the engine internals. I am not even sure what the oil thrower is nor its fingers. (Snip)... The spray shield was only used with the lip seal type of rear main seal (ie, the Mk II). The attached JPEG illustrates it's position.

In later engines, Lotus deleted the spray shield from new engines. For existing engines, Lotus first put a note in the parts manual saying the shield could be deleted if so desired. Later they eliminated all mention of it.

Regards,
Tim Engel

Attachment: Engine - Rear Main Spray Shield Position - 94kb.jpg (Downloaded 42 times)

Last edited on 02-01-2018 08:56 am by Esprit2

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 Posted: 02-01-2018 08:28 am
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Esprit2
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answerman wrote:
"When you install the seal make sure you hold it back aprox. 0.100" or it will leak like a sieve."The attached JPEG illustrates how the seal is supposed to be pressed in, stopping 0.100" (2.54mm) from the inner edge of the seal housing.

Regards,
Tim Engel

Attachment: Rear Main Seal Install in Housing - 67kb.jpg (Downloaded 42 times)

Last edited on 02-01-2018 08:31 am by Esprit2

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 Posted: 02-01-2018 08:39 am
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Esprit2
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This JPEG is another view of the spray shield. It also shows the rear cover and lip seal with the centering tool installed. The tool centers the seal on the crank journal. Failure to center the seal (either the front or rear main seals), can result in immediate leaks. You don't need to use the special tool to center the seal, but it makes the task simple to do.

Note that the rear seal housing's bolt threads should also be sealed in order to prevent oil wicking out past the threads. Note that thread SEALANT is not the same as Threadlocker. There are liquid sealers, like Loctite Thread Sealant, or use Teflon tape.

Regards,
Tim Engel

Attachment: Rear Main Installing Housing with Tool 84A - 98kb.jpg (Downloaded 40 times)

Last edited on 02-01-2018 08:59 am by Esprit2

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 Posted: 02-01-2018 08:52 am
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Esprit2
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Off topic, but one more illustration while I'm on a roll. This one shows a modification to the rear journal in the Main Bearing Panel (MPB). Both are hand cut with a file. The notch allows a little oil to flow through the joint between the upper & lower bearing shells, and to then flow back to the rear Thrust Washer. It's the rear one that takes all the axial load when you step on the clurch pedal, and this mod gives it a more reliable lubrication.

Don't get paranoid, this is a recommended modification, not a mandate. There are a lot of old 907s out there that don't have this mod, and I don't believe it can be done on a Mk I 907.

Regards,
Tim Engel

Attachment: 9XX Mod to Main Brg Panel - 1980-87 910-912.jpg (Downloaded 41 times)

Last edited on 02-01-2018 09:01 am by Esprit2

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 Posted: 02-01-2018 01:04 pm
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stuartmorgan
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Hi everyone thanks for the great feedback
Either way if it's bolts or rear seal position, it'll have to come back out again!!!!

Cheers gang this was great help
Regards
Stu

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 Posted: 02-01-2018 05:49 pm
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answerman
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Just to be clear (I assume this was obvious but you know what happens when you assume):

When I mentioned using the CDs as a spacer, I was using them as a guide when pressing the seal into the housing. Obviously, they aren't installed into the engine.

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 Posted: 02-02-2018 01:00 am
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Tim Murphy
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Thanks Tim Engel, those diagrams and your explanations make things much clearer. And Answerman,I didn't realize the CD's were not to be installed with the engine. Now my engine has absolutely no power but when it idles it plays Ray Charles Greatest Hits.:<)

Last edited on 02-02-2018 01:02 am by Tim Murphy

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