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REAR WHEEL BEARINGS - Questions???  Rating:  Rating
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 Posted: 12-16-2005 01:49 am
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nvandal
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Can someone tell me if I'm right. Since the o-ring on the rear wheel bearings is toward the differential, then its job is to prevent oil from leaking beyond the outside race of the bearing beyong the o-ring? Therefore, the bearing must be sealed on the outside only if oils is to lubricate it and not pass throught it? Then my main question is why is there a paper gasket between the bearing retainer plate ( holds axle in too ) and the drum brake backing plate??? The hole around the axle on both the backing plate and the retaining plate is not sealed. Then what is this gasket all about? Am I missing something.

Also, there is no gasket between the drum brake backing plate and the axle flange??? Ok...so what's that about?

Delta doesn't have any of these gaskets, but I have two perfect ones on some axles I got on Ebay. I know I can cut new ones easily, but what the heck is there purpose????

Please enlighten me!

norm Vandal

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 Posted: 12-16-2005 03:52 pm
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Mark Rosenbaum
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Good question.  I'd suppose that it's present to provide a small sealed volume to capture whatever gets past the o-ring and bearing, so that the brakes are not contaminated.  If that's not the answer, then perhaps it's a carry-over of what Vauxhall did in the old days before o-rings, or perhaps is intended to keep brake dust and other debris away from the bearing.

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 Posted: 12-17-2005 02:18 am
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nvandal
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Mark,

thanks for your response.

Yeah...it's certainly a mystery to me. For instance, if one drove through a very deep puddle, water could enter the gap between the bearing retaining plate and the axle. It would then become trapped in the recess of the retaining plate. It could also contaminate the bearings.

Also, there is no gasket between the axle flange and the brake backing plate?

All I know is that when I put my five speed rear end in I'm gonna lather it all up with silastic to seal what I can. I'll be using spacers to take the place of the backing plate since I'll be switching to disk brakes. I'll cut new paper gaskets since Delta no longer stocks the OE ones. Any other advice?

Do these bearings fail frequently? Has anyone found a completely sealed bearing substitute?

Thanks,

Norm Vandal

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 Posted: 12-17-2005 05:11 pm
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Mark Rosenbaum
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"... if one drove through a very deep puddle, water could enter the gap between the bearing retaining plate and the axle. It would then become trapped in the recess of the retaining plate. It could also contaminate the bearings. ..."

Good point.  Perhaps folks living along the Mississippi River or Gulf Coast could comment on that?  Maybe a small hole on the either side of the bottom of the rear end housing, just inboard of the flange, would eliminate both that concern and any worries about lubricant seepage past the retainer plate.  I'd also put a small cotter pin through each hole from the inside, to prevent blockage due to grime.

"Also, there is no gasket between the axle flange and the brake backing plate?"

No gasket.  This isn't common practice anywhere and there's nothing in the documentation to indicate a gasket there.

"... when I put my five speed rear end in I'm gonna lather it all up with silastic to seal what I can. ..."

In places where all you need is a sealer, rather than a filler of gaps, I'd recommend using Hylomar instead.  It remains flexible indefinitely and thus tends to provide a better seal than anything else of which I'm aware.

"I'll cut new paper gaskets since Delta no longer stocks the OE ones."

You might want to go to the trouble of making a good dimensioned pattern drawing so that when someone asks about the gaskets, a couple of years from now, you could email them a copy.  Or perhaps you might want to make and sell these for a few bucks a pair.

"Do these bearings fail frequently?"

Save for one case where a vehicle was overloaded by a couple of tons, the only rear wheel bearing failures I know about occurred because the owner let them run dry.  Keep the rear end lubricant level where it should be, don't take elephants for rides, and the bearings will likely last approximately forever.

"Has anyone found a completely sealed bearing substitute?"

I think you'd actually want the 'semi-sealed' bearing which is sealed on one side and open on the other to allow a lubricant to enter.  It's sort of hard to tell, but from the attached photo that appears to be the type they used.

Attachment: Brg set #2 QWB149C.jpg (Downloaded 343 times)

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 Posted: 12-17-2005 08:55 pm
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nvandal
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Thanks for the advice on sealer. I was going to zerox the gasket so I'd have a pattern. That should reproduce it 1:1.

I was give two parts cars, one with Getrag five speed and the corresponding rear end. One of the hubs was bent since the car had slid into a curb. I tried removing the bearing from the axle with the bent hub. Man, what a pain. My guess is it really can't be done without a press. I'll bring it over to a friend's to pop it out. I want the bearing retaining plate to use as a hole pattern for caliper brackets.

I'm totally cleaning the tranny and differential/ axle case. I'll media blast the trainling arms and pop in new bushings, including those on the diff case. I got some great condition axles on Ebay; cleaned them up and painted the hubs. The bearings are good. I'll media blast the springs and paint them too. I bought new shocks ( Gaz adjustable ) on Ebay.

Clutch and pressure plate are near new. Putting in new throwout bearing though.

I put a new shifter bushing kit on the tranny, and am getting new mounts for the tranny and the shifter extension. Had to have a drive shaft made. Didn't want to use the two piece with the funky rubber center mount.

My goal is to restore everything before putting it together. Any thoughts on what I may have forgotten? I want to simply pluck out the old system and pop in the " new ". Winter project in Vermont!

Joyous Holidays to you,

Norm Vandal

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 Posted: 12-18-2005 04:40 am
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Mark Rosenbaum
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I used to think xerography copiers gave 1:1 reproductions but actually they can be off by several percent and may not be the same along both axes.  This only matters when making images of critical stuff like gaskets and exotic electronic circuitry.  I suggest placing two perpendicular rulers on the scan bed along with the gasket just in case.  If you also store an electronic copy of the image, you can later massage the image, if necessary, to produce it at exactly 1:1.

For the rear end, if you've got the thing more or less apart, you might want to consider adding a drain plug to the bottom of the differential housing.  This can be much smaller than the filler plug.  With the rear cover off and a rag jammed into the case, there shouldn't be any problems with metal chips.  This allows draining the lubricant if it gets contaminated without having to R&R the cover and install a new gasket there.

In addition to the suspension arms and springs, you might want to abrasive-blast the diff rear cover.  The original paint there tends to fall off in flakes, often after one paints over it.  You could also do the same to the backing plates for the rear brakes.  If you feel so inclined, you could even re-plate the various levers and bits.  Check the e-brake cable and transverse rod.

You mentioned installing a new throwout bearing and that the clutch and pressure plate were near new.  What about the pilot bearing?

All in all, sounds like a wonderful winter's project, as long as you don't have to work outside in the snow!

Perhaps you could tell me if the threads on the tops of the 4-speed and 5-speed shift levers are the same? 

 

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 Posted: 12-18-2005 05:21 pm
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Jensen Healey
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I used the pump-top from the gear oil bottle to remove the old and squirt in the new. I think it got about 90% of the muck off of the bottom of the case. Since I was changing the oil as general maintenance, (once every 30 years weather it needs it or not), I felt the procedure was adequate. Of course if there was any indication of mechanical problems one would want a more thorough cleaning.

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 Posted: 12-19-2005 03:59 pm
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Brett Gibson JH5 20497
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Norm, what is the bearing number and brand marked on your new and old bearings, I wouldn't mind trying to match them up at a bearing house.

For your info, when I first put my car on the road turned out I had a bad drivers side rear bearing, and towards the end of this year I thought I could detect a bit of noise coming from it again, not sure but I will keep my eye on it, thats why I wouldn't mind getting those numbers of you, didn't think to keep them when I did it.

Mark I know I put on a few pounds but I dont think that was the cause ...........

Brett.   

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 Posted: 12-22-2005 01:56 am
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nvandal
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When I get a chance I'll get the numbers off the bearings. A totally sealed bearing would work just fine. I don't believe that lubrication is necessary, and it can potentially lead to contamination. I had totally sealed bearings on my Lotus. However, it would need to be able to handle the axial load.

New bearings would likely not have the groove for the o-ring. Delta told me their bearings don't, and said they needed to be bedded in silastic instead. Grooves could probably be machined, but the outer race would need to be thick enough.

I'll try to get the numbers. Once I've gotten one removed, I could get the dimensions as well.

Norm Vandal

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 Posted: 10-23-2006 02:43 pm
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edward_davis
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I've got a new bearing from Delta, with no o-ring groove, and I'm trying to figure out what you mean by "bedded in silastic."  I need to find a shop that will do the job of removing the old bearings and putting my new one on for me, and I'd like to be sure what I need to tell them before I get started.  I'm replacing this bearing because of a combination of lots of rear end noise and a spreading puddle of gear oil below the left rear wheel, so it won't do me much good if I don't get the new one to seal properly.

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 Posted: 10-23-2006 03:25 pm
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Mark Rosenbaum
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Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think 'bedded in silastic' means lining the sides and bottom of the recess, into which the bearing fits, with a very generous amount of oil-resistant silicone sealer to form a leak-proof seal.  I suspect that it would be necessary to read the technical data sheets for all the likely sealers to select the one which would work best here.

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 Posted: 10-23-2006 03:56 pm
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Brett Gibson JH5 20497
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Ed, I just happen to be in the middle of doing both my rear bearings right now, Delta sent me the bearings and I got one of each kind, one with the O-ring and one without, the thing about these bearings is, the inside oil seal is a labyrinth style and the outer is a seal, that way some oil from the differential can on occasion enter the bearing, but not leak out into the drum brakes.

I kind of wish they would have sent me two of the same style, and in looking at them I probably would have preferred the non o-ring style, there's a chance you can nip the o-ring installing it, as for imbedding the bearing in salastic, thats just smearing a thin coat of RTV, probably best to use the high heat kind, on the width of the bearing before reinstalling the axle and bearing assembly back into the diff. housing.

And the bearing number for those interested is a SKF 361964.  I second sourced them thru a bearing house but the price is almost the same as Delta's so not worth going that route for me.

Brett

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 Posted: 10-29-2006 10:20 pm
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Jeff Kouski
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When closely examining the rear wheel bearings, I found that there is a spring and lip type of seal between the inner and outer races on one side and a common dust shield on the other side. The service manual says that the O-ring on the outer race should go in, toward the differential. When that is done it puts the seal between the inner and outer races to the differential side also. If this is the case, then the rear wheel bearings are not lubricated by the differential lubricant like they are on most vehicles. I opened up one of my old wheel bearings and found grease inside of it which confirms to me that they are lubricated when they are put together and do not require additional lubrication.

There is also a protrusion on the dust shield side of the inner race that should point out, toward the wheel. On the original bearings there was a flinger ring just outside of the dust shield that was pressed onto this protrusion.

If the rear wheel bearing were put on inside out then it would be outboard too far and may cause a binding or sealing problem. If someone would like them, I can post photos of what I am talking about for clarity.

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 Posted: 10-30-2006 12:44 pm
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edward_davis
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Jeff,

I would like to see photos of your bearings, so I can be sure what to look for on mine.

Thanks,

Edward

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 Posted: 10-31-2006 07:20 am
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Jeff Kouski
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I'll get some photos posted right away.

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 Posted: 11-03-2006 01:38 am
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Jeff Kouski
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Edward, I could not get the photos posted so I sent them to your e-mail adress.

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 Posted: 11-07-2006 03:00 pm
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edward_davis
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I've replaced the bearing on my leaking driver's side.  The pictures are posted here:

http://jhppg.com/gallery/album139

After taking everything apart and putting it back together, I have a hypothesis on the purpose of the single paper gasket in the system. 

The o-ring on my bearing failed, and oil leaked out.  For quite a while, the paper gasket did its job, and the oil all leaked out through the single little hole in the brake backing plate, and stayed out of the drum braking mechanism.  But, sometime before I bought the car, the little hole fouled with old oil and grime, and the oil began to be forced out into the brake assembly.  When I finally took everything apart, the oil was flowing both out over the lip of the bearing retainer plate, in the center, and out the bottom of the retainer plate, where the gasket had also failed.  So, the gasket is there to keep the oil out of the brakes (where it could cause much greater damage, ruining the shoes like it had done for me).

When I put everthing back together, I used RTV red, the kind for high temperatures.  It seemed to have the right characteristics from the information on the package.  I also very carefully cleaned out the drain hole on the backing plate, and ran the RTV around it so that it would not be blocked.  That way, if the RTV I ran around the outside of the bearing fails, the oil will still not make its way into the brakes.  Hopefully everything will work right now. 

I'm not sure the bearing was bad; I'd been hearing low rumbles from the rear end, but it looked like the o-ring was all that was the problem.  I'll have to keep an ear out now to see if I still have the rumblings.  If it wasn't the bearing, I probably could have simply pulled the axle and re-coated everything with RTV gasket goop, as Mike suggested in an earlier post on a different thread.

If my rumblings remain, I'll start looking at the u-joints on the driveshaft, since several other folks have reported these as the cause behind similar rumblings.

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 Posted: 06-01-2007 07:20 am
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timeforwalkies
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I wasn't looking for what I found, but......you mention installing disk brakes on the 5 speed rear axle.  Is this an after market kit you have discovered?  I am not too keen on the existing drums and would love to switch over if it isn't to difficult.
Thanks,
Clif
Nevermind.......found it.

Last edited on 06-01-2007 07:26 am by timeforwalkies

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