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 Posted: 11-02-2019 02:01 am
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flatlanderep
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Installed Pertronix Ignitor I today and expected car to start but it keeps cranking. I installed new NGK BPR6ES plugs and gapped the plugs at 0.035. I am getting spark at all 4 plugs, verified by removing plug, placing on engine and turning the key. Lined up crank pulleys, removed dizzy cap and rotor pointing to #1 plug wire. I called Pertronix tech support and told the support staff person that I have a Bosch “blue” coil and he stated that will work. I told him the wires that are connected to the coil and he said that they were correct. Also there is no ballast resistor and probably removed by PO. Any suggestions to solve why car will not start? Car started prior to the Pertronix.
Steve

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 Posted: 11-02-2019 04:43 am
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Tim Murphy
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Check you spark timing with a timing light. The spark trigger "mechanism" may be off. When you checked that the rotor was pointed at #1 plug wire at TDC, did you check that the pickup and trigger were also lined up? Also, as I remember, someone recently posted that they had the pertronix wires reversed on the coil (red to + ?) and their symptoms were similar to yours. Take care and good luck.

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 Posted: 11-02-2019 02:23 pm
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Brett Gibson JH5 20497
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Crank pulley AND Cam pulley's for TDC, you might 180 degrees off.

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 Posted: 11-02-2019 06:55 pm
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flatlanderep
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How do you check if the trigger mechanism inside distributor is lined up? I have checked the wires from Pertronix to the coil and red is to pos and black to neg.

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 Posted: 11-02-2019 06:56 pm
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flatlanderep
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How do I check if I am off 180 degrees?

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 Posted: 11-02-2019 09:47 pm
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Brett Gibson JH5 20497
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Besides the crankshaft at TDC the cam shafts marks have to be aligned as well.
This is what you need to do so your not out of timing, and as an extra, pull the #1 plug and make sure the piston is up on top.

Last edited on 11-03-2019 02:22 pm by Brett Gibson JH5 20497

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 Posted: 11-02-2019 10:05 pm
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flatlanderep
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If I am 180 degrees off, how do I know and what do I do to correct it? Do I switch plug 1 and plug 4 on the dizzy?

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 Posted: 11-03-2019 06:07 am
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Tom Bradley
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Your spark plug gap may be too big. The spec for is 0.025" for Strombergs, not 0.035".

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 Posted: 11-03-2019 04:19 pm
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Tom Bradley
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The timing may be off when you changed over to the Pertronix, but it should not be off by 180 deg unless you also changed the spark plug wiring at the same time. I would check the timing while cranking and make sure it is somewhere around 5-10 deg BTDC. Anything close to this and the car should at least fire, if not run especially well. An easy check is to use the timing light to look at the cam sprocket marks when cranking. They should be close to being lined up as shown in the JH manual if the spark is a few degrees BTDC.

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 Posted: 11-03-2019 08:19 pm
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Brett Gibson JH5 20497
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My point about 180 out was the crankshaft timing mark may line up, but if the cams are not, Then the engine is ONE revolution out, thus the 180.
Brett

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 Posted: 11-03-2019 09:50 pm
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flatlanderep
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When the intake & exhaust cams align, the crank pulley is about 15- 20 degrees before the TDC timing mark. The distributor rotor is aligned to the #1 plug in the 12 o’clock position: I am attaching photo of crank pulley.

Attachment: F9360392-5501-4472-8B2B-326102EF63F0.jpeg (Downloaded 54 times)

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 Posted: 11-04-2019 02:39 am
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Tom Bradley
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Sorry, scratch the earlier remark (if you read it). I had the direction wrong. The pic shows the crank at almost exactly TDC, which is where it should be with the cam marks aligned. If the Pertronix is firing at this point, then it is firing at TDC. I am not clear how you determined when the spark is firing. Did you check this with a timing light?

Which Pertronix do you have, 1, 2 or 3? The timing of 2 and 3 cannot be set statically, so if you do not have a timing light, you will have to get one.

Sorry if my responses at this point are not very helpful, but I am struggling to understand exactly what you have been doing. If the only change you made is installing the Pertronix, then the only thing you should have to be looking at is getting the ignition timing correct.

Last edited on 11-04-2019 03:17 am by Tom Bradley

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 Posted: 11-04-2019 02:57 am
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Tim Murphy
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As Tom Bradley suggested in his 2nd post, and I in my first, you really need to check you timing, both crank and cams, with a timing light while someone else attempts to start the engine. Do it quickly to avoid overheating coil, etc. A basic timing light is not expensive and is a very useful tool. Others have had problems installing electronic ignitions, here is one write up. Note, avoid the timing belt adjustments that the author did with his install: https://sites.google.com/site/johnsjensenhealeywebpage/maintenance-projects/2-pertronix-ignition

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 Posted: 11-04-2019 05:59 pm
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flatlanderep
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Determined TDC by aligning intake & exhaust cams to their marks, removed dizzy cap rotor points to #1 plug and crank pulley timing mark lines with TDC. Then I pulled #1 plug and placed a screwdriver in plug hole and piston is at the top. I do have a timing light and not sure how to use it since someone helped with it several years ago. I checked spark for each plug by removing one plug at a time and placing it on. engine block and had a helper turn the key, spark noticed in all 4 plugs.

Is it possible the distributor is not seated all the way in the housing? At this point, would someone call me to discuss over the phone while I am at car? 803-230-6328
Thanks; Steve

Attachment: 2D53A504-CFCE-46F9-8161-4241C013B3B8.jpeg (Downloaded 47 times)

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 Posted: 11-04-2019 06:01 pm
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flatlanderep
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Here is pic of in/ex cams

Attachment: EFD9CABD-0220-4CB8-9C9E-AF98EB9A02CC.jpeg (Downloaded 46 times)

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 Posted: 11-04-2019 10:39 pm
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flatlanderep
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I have the Ignitor 1. In reading many of the posts re: Petronix installs, I notice one of them mentioned not to remove the pinch bolt on the distributor and I do remember removing it before I removed the distributor. Did this change the timing. Also I read John’s post from 2013 and I don’t want to remove the belts to change the timing. With the distributor in the horizontal position, it can only turn very slightly and how do I adjust timing.

Attached pic of IN/EX cam gears at TDC.

Attachment: B8B9CDC6-4BA7-45F9-BE43-1855CE69882E.jpeg (Downloaded 42 times)

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 Posted: 11-05-2019 12:59 am
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Tim Murphy
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From your pictures it looks like the crank, cams and distributor are set up correctly. Which is to be expected as it ran good before the pertronix install. Now you need to know when the sparkplug is firing. A timing light will flash when the spark plug fires. I am going to link to a couple of "how tos" sites that may be helpful. Using a basic inductive timing light is not difficult. I find it much easier to see the results if it is dark, or at least not bright, when I actually view the timing light flashes on the crank pully. So, for example, if you are working in the garage, get things set up and then turn off most of the lights. For right now you are just concerned with idle timing.

https://www.wikihow.com/Adjust-Timing

Last edited on 11-05-2019 01:14 am by Tim Murphy

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 Posted: 11-05-2019 01:04 am
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Tim Murphy
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And a Youtube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wifTHbb06_I

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 Posted: 11-05-2019 05:56 pm
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Esprit2
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flatlanderep wrote:
Determined TDC by aligning intake & exhaust cams to their marks, removed dizzy cap rotor points to #1 plug and crank pulley timing mark lines with TDC.Steve,
In total, that's correct. But you backed into it, and the good result is more due to luck than proper procedure. Just to make a point, and to get your head focused, TDC is all about CRANK position. The first step should be to rotate the crank until the mark on the V-belt pulley aligns with the 0° (TDC) timing mark. Only then, look at the cam pulleys.

If the pulley dots are on the imaginary centerline between cams, but on far opposite sides of the pulleys, then the crank is 180° out, and the #4 cylinder is at TDC. Rotate the crank through another full revolution and back to TDC. That should bring the timing dots half way around the cam pulleys, adjacent to one another, and aligned on the imaginary centerline between the cams. Now the #1 cylinder is at TDC, and you're ready to move on to the ignition timing.

The pulleys can only be indexed on the belt in whole tooth increments. One tooth pitch is the distance from a point on one tooth to the exact same point on the next, adjacent tooth. In other words, the total of one tooth width plus one gap width... much more than just the width of one tooth. IF the pulley timing dots are misaligned by just a little bit, far less than a full tooth + gap, then that's just due to tolerances. At TDC, and a 'little bit' off the centerline between the pulleys, they're aligned as close as they're going to get with OEM non-adjustable pulleys, and there's nothing more you can do about it. Relax.

Cam timing is defined as "AT TOP DEAD CENTER", so no, it is not permissible to nudge the crank a little off TDC in order to bring the cam pulley timing marks into perfect alignment. With the #1 cylinder AT TDC, the cam pulley dots are where they are... you don't get to move the crank off TDC to "fix" cam timing !

*~*~*~*
Now move your attention to the distributor. With the cap on, observe the positions of the plug wire terminals such that you can imagine the locations after the cap is removed. Now remove the cap and notice the rotor's location. With the crank at TDC (all that discussion above), the terminal the rotor is pointing toward is now #1. Reinstall the cap to identify the relevant terminal, and mark it as #1.

As you look at the terminal end of the cap (viewed from the flywheel end of the engine looking forward at the distributor cap), the rest of the terminals should be marked in 1-3-4-2 order, COUNTER-clockwise around the cap. Now make certain the wires from the spark plugs are installed on the correct terminals. The #1 spark plug is closest to the front of the engine.

*~*~*~*
Rotate the crank through just short of two full revolutions, stopping with the timing mark on the V-belt pulley at your desired ignition static advance. If you want the Static Advance to be 10° BTDC, then stop the crank at the 10° BTDC timing mark.

Back at the distributor -- The rotor's arm ends with a flat, wide brass blade. The leading edge of the rotor's blade (it rotates counter-clockwise) should now be aligned with the cap's #1 terminal location. At this point, over-lapping a little is better than an air gap. If that's not the case, then loosen the distributor and rotate it as required to bring the #1 terminal in to alignment with (slightly overlapping) the rotor's leading edge. Re-tighten the distributor clamp.

NOTE: The distributor is spring-loaded outward. If you simply loosen the clamp, the distributor will pop out of the oil pump. First, grasp the distributor with your left hand and apply inward pressure. Hold that inward pressure while you loosen, rotate, and tighten the distributor. Don't release that inward pressure until the clamp is tight again.

The engine part of the equation is now set. However...

*~*~*~*
The Pertronix amplifier unit doesn't mount in "ONE" indexed position in the distributor. The screw hole is a slot, and the amplifier can slide back and forth before being tightened down. If the amplifier is at the counter-clockwise (left) extreme, the spark will fire late. If it's at the clockwise (right) extreme, the spark will fire early. 'Perfection' is 1) the crank reaching the Static Advance timing mark (10° BTDC, or whatever your target is) at the same time that 2) the rotor's leading edge aligns with the #1 terminal, and 3) the amplifier fires a spark.

That last one, item 3) above, is a matter of where the amplifier is in it's mounting slot when the screw is tightened down. To far to the right (clockwise), and it might fire the spark before the rotor is aligned with the cap's terminal. Too far to the left (counter-clockwise), and it might fire the spark late, well after the rotor has reached the terminal, and result in retarded ignition timing despite the crank being correctly set to 10° BTDC.

With the crank set at your target timing advance, and the distributor rotated to bring the terminal into alignment with the rotor's leading edge (or slightly over-lapping), loosen and re-position the Pertronix amplifier's pick-up to be aligned with the moving reluctor as best you can. Pertronix refers to that adjustment as "Phasing". All the engine adjustments are "ignition timing", and the amplifier adjustment is "Phasing". And they need to agree.

*~*~*~*
The spark isn't instantaneous, is has a duration. By aligning the plug wire terminal with the leading edge of the wide rotor blade, you're giving the spark the maximum amount of time from when the rotor's leading edge first aligns with the terminal, to when it's trailing edge departs. At 7000 rpm, the time required for the full width of the blade to sweep by the terminal is still very brief.

Phase the Pertronix too far to the right (clockwise), and it it might fire the spark before the rotor aligns with the #1 terminal. That's a lost spark, and nothing happens.

Phase it too far to the left (counter-clockwise), and it may fire the spark late, after part of the rotor's width has partially passed the terminal. The spark will still reach the terminal, and the plug will fire, but you have given up some of that all ready very brief duration time for the spark. At high rpm, the trailing edge of the rotor may leave the terminal before the spark is done. The spark will reach the sparkplug, and the engine will run, so this is the lesser of two evils. But the goal is to Phase the amplifier as best you can to take full advantage of the spark's full duration.

flatlanderep wrote:
Is it possible the distributor is not seated all the way in the housing?Possible, and you should make certain it is seated. But the drive dog is engaged or it's not. There's no 'out a little' that will affect timing. Grab the rotor and try to spin it.

If the rotor turns freely, then the distributor is partially disengaged to the point that the drive dog is not in the mating slot in the end of the Auxilliary Shaft. If the rotor is 'solid', and doesn't turn at all, then the drive dog is seated in the Aux Shaft's slot. It's either/ or, and not something that 'slightly' affects ignition timing.

Regards,
Tim Engel

Last edited on 11-06-2019 04:53 pm by Esprit2

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 Posted: 11-06-2019 05:07 am
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flatlanderep
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After spending a few couple of hours following Tim E. suggestions, I decided to start from the beginning. Took out distributor and sending pics of the Pertronix install and the dis. shaft. First, is the magnetic ring down far enough on the shaft? Is does not go down any further and aligns with the amplifier. Also, I don’t see how the clockwise or ccwise position can be changed because the mounting plate fits exactly where the 2 holes are located and it does not slide. Also noticed that it appears that a washer is missing at the end of the distributor shaft. See attached pics.

Attachment: 24B95A23-8DC2-4682-A466-8A40014C3687.jpeg (Downloaded 30 times)

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