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flatlanderep
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I purchased a 1973 JH 2 years ago with Dellortos. It was not running well and I took it to a British car repair shop in Durham, NC last summer. He worked on carbs and a lot of other work as well. Been running fine until 2 weeks ago when it started sputtering when I picked up speed but made it home. Subsequent short test drives were similar and when I had it revving in the drive way, it would sputter and die. Decided it was not getting fuel at the carbs. Bought new Facet pump and filter from Delta. Bought new fuel line tubing at local auto store and installed and started right up. Took it out for short drive around neighborhood and all seemed good. Was going to take it out tonight for a drive but soon as I started it, revs very rough, sputtered, with loud mis-fires and then sputtered and quit. Been reading all the posts and I did not notice the in line bullet shaped flow regulator so assume did not have one. Only other thing I read is the fuel hose diameter in the trunk. Shop gave me 3/8" but posts mentioned 5/16. Could this be the problem? Also, how do you measure pressure in fuel line at the carbs? Any help is appreciated.
Steve (Greenville, NC)

Last edited on 10-06-2018 03:31 am by flatlanderep

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So have you checked the small basket filters on each carb just the fuel line. Sometimes debris builds up and causes blockage.

Brett Gibson JH5 20497
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3/8" verses 5/16" not a issue, that speaks of volume of gas delivered, not pressure. pressure can be tested by putting a tee in the gas line with a gauge on it, normal reading is 2.5 to 3 lbs. Home Depot in plumbing supplies.

flatlanderep
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Where are the baskets located on the Dellortos?

Last edited on 10-06-2018 03:56 pm by flatlanderep

Brett Gibson JH5 20497
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The gas supply line coming from the tank into the engine bay, the line supplies both Dell's, put it inline BEFORE both, add more hose if need be, each Dell is normally supplied top Left, that's were the small filter is located that Randall was referring to, inside the large Nut.

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What does your inline fuel filter in the boot look like? The JH fuel tanks are notorious for rusting inside, they can get quite nasty and can introduce a significant amount of debris into the fuel system. I would check the inside of the tank for corrosion. Most Jensen Healeys that I have seen need the fuel tanks rebuilt.

flatlanderep
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I found the baskets located under the nut and they were clean. There were specks in a small container that I used to remove the bolt on to get to the basket on the carb closest to the fire wall. I then did a test to check for gas coming into the front carb by removing the fuel line hose and running it into a container. I turned the key and it has good flow and gas collected in container was clear with no specks of any debris. So is there a problem in the flow of fuel in the carbs?

flatlanderep
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Fuel filter is new and I have owned 2 other JHs and know the tanks are problematic and at some point I do want to replace it or have it re-done.

New update, I just started it but it was difficult starting. As I revved it, there was a loud bang on the right side of the engine bay and saw a spark in engine bay. Shut it down immediately. Any answers??

Brett Gibson JH5 20497
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Stop looking at the carbs, and make doubly sure you’re ignition system is not the issue.

flatlanderep
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OK, to start with ignition issue, I checked the plugs and they were foul with black coating. Changed plugs with gap of 0.035 with Dells. Went to start it and it just keeps cranking and does not turn over. Batter is good. What next, starter/solenoid/coil? It was running but with sputtering several weeks ago.

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If the engine is cranking, then the starter and solenoid should be OK. Here is what I would check:

1) bad connections: make sure the 12V electrical connections to the coil are tight. If all of the spark plugs are showing the same effect then the HV wire from the coil to the distributor may be loose or have gone bad. If only one spark plug looked bad, then it could be the wire to that particular plug. This could be the cause of the spark you saw in the engine compartment. Do you have the tool for plugging the wires to the spark plugs? If makes it much easier to make sure the connections are good. One loose wire to one plug can cause really nasty misfiring and other problems, which brings up #2.

2) Distributor cap: This is one of the weakest links in the system, especially if you have electronic ignition. The cap really is not made for these kind of voltages. So if there is a loose connection to one of the plugs, the spark can jump other places, often damaging the cap in the process. I have gone through a huge number of these over the years. So check if for any cracks or discoloration. Better yet, replace it and the rotor. They're relative cheap. Keep a spare around as well.

Since you saw a spark in the engine compartment, the coil was good at that time, so should be OK. They don't go bad very often or easily. If you want to have a spare around to double check it, just get an ordinary inexpensive one, no need for anything expensive. It should run OK regardless.

Do you still have mechanical points? These go bad easily. Switching to a Pertronix 2 would be worth your while.

Hope this is of some help.

Tom

Last edited on 10-20-2018 04:06 am by Tom Bradley

flatlanderep
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Here is the latest, checked all wires on coil and starter, cleaned them and made sure connections are tight. Checked plug wires to distributor cap. Noticed the wire from coil to distributor cap does not fit snugly. Also is there 1 or 2 retainer clips that hold the distributor cap? The clip that I see is secure but I can lift the cap away from the housing on the opposite side of the cap. This does not seem right??

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Sounds like a loose distributor cap is the problem, or at least the main one. Yes, there is a clip on the back of the distributor. It is difficult to get to and when installing the distributor it can feel like the clip is snapped in correctly when it is not. It is important to visually check that the clip is correctly snapped in correctly to keep the distributor cap from coming loose at the back. I always clip the back on first, check that it is right, then do the front clip. One of the special joys of the Lotus engine experience.

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Easiest way to get to the back clip is to first note the position of the distributor which should be correct when the timing is about 12 degrees. Then loosen the distributor and turn it so you can get to the back clip. Remove or close the clip based on whether you are removing or reinstalling the distributor cap then turn the distributor so you can install or remove the other clip. Get the timing set close by the marks the. Start the car and reset the timing. No more busted knuckles.

flatlanderep
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Bought new spark plug wires, distributor cap and rotor. Put on new rotor and both clips on distributor cap. When I removed the old distributor cap, 3 spark plug wires came off the distributor before I could mark their order on the cap. Can someone tell me the spark plug order location on the distributor cap? My 1st attempt at it failed because it is not starting. Thanks.
Steve

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Turn the engine over manually by 1st removing the plugs then get #1 piston to TDC with the cam shaft marks in a matched position in between the camshafts. Then make sure that the #1 spark plug wire is connected to the cap that matches the position on the distributor rotor.

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If you want me to walk you thru it on the phone, call me at 909-938-2090. It’s fairly simple process once you do it a couple of times.

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I forgot to add the firing order 1-4-3-2. I’m fairly sure of that.

Randy Clary
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Esprit2
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Close, but not quite.
The firing order is 1-3-4-2.

The cylinders fire from center out, front pair, then rear pair. So 2-1-3-4-2-1-3-4... Since our little minds like to start any sequence with "1", that becomes 1-3-4-2. That's not the only firing order used on 4-cylinder engines, but it's probably the most common.

This thread has sure morphed from fuel pumps & lines.

Regards,
Tim Engel

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Thanks Tim. Do my other comments seem ok?

Tom Bradley
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I might add that the rotation is clockwise when viewed from the top of the distributor cap. The attached picture is from the JH parts catalog. Hopefully you will be able to see where the #2 and #4 plug wires are attached. The other two should be easy to figure out from the firing order.

Attachment: spark plug wiring.jpg (Downloaded 167 times)

flatlanderep
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I realize this post does not belong in this topic but since I started, I will continue. Here is the latest. Went to TDC, removed distributor cap, found where rotor was pointing & connected #1 sp wire to this dist. contact. Followed counter clockwise with 3,4,2. Checked static timing and it sparked as expected and timing pointed about 12 degrees for my Dellorto carbs. Tried starting and it does start, very rough but within 30 sec. saw sparks in the Dell carb filters and then stalls. As I stated in earlier post, when all this started I found that the distributor cap clip on engine side was off, therefore the cap was not connected. The timing should not be off just because cap was loose. Is timing off or what is next? Also, just installed new plugs and removing #1 during this process & already spark plug fouling.

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"... saw sparks in the Dell carb filters and then stalls."

Tim: I don't think you saw electrical sparks but rather ignited gasoline. Something is way out of whack. First, you could have gotten confused as to rotation direction of rotor. Check that again. For TDC, make sure both crank pully and cam pulleys are simultaneously lined up correctly. Do not bundle the spark plug wires together at any point, try to keep them all completely separate. I would then suggest doing a compression check to make sure your valves are closing. Take care and good luck

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Randallclary@icloud.com wrote:
Thanks Tim. Do my other comments seem ok?No problems.
Tim

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When you're standing in front of the car, looking at the front of the engine, it's normal running direction is CLOCKWISE. That includes the Auxiliary pulley/shaft and distributor.
Tom Bradley wrote:
... the rotation is clockwise when viewed from the top of the distributor cap.'WHEN VIEWED FROM THE TOP OF THE DISTRIBUTOR CAP' -- When you move to a point further back, closer to the flywheel, and look forward at the 'top' of the distributor cap, the direction of rotation is COUNTER-CLOCKWISE. The rotation is still Clockwise, but your point of view has reversed. So from a more aft point of view, the rotor will appear to rotate COUNTER-CLOCKWISE.

Once you locate the #1 terminal on the cap, install the #1 plug wire there, and rest of the plug wires in 1-3-4-2 order, counter-clockwise around the cap.

flatlanderep wrote:
Went to TDC, removed distributor cap, found where rotor was pointing & connected #1 sp wire to this dist. contact.TDC isn't enough, it needs to be #1 TDC. That means with the crank at TDC, the timing dots on the cam pulleys must also be adjacent and aligned ON the imaginary centerline between the cams. If the timing marks are on far opposite sides of the cam pulleys, then rotate the crank clockwise through one more full revolution, and back to TDC. The timing marks should now be adjacent and aligned ON the centerline between the cams.

That may be a 'Duh' sort of thing, where of course you meant #1 TDC. But we can only diagnose based on what you say, and I didn't want to have a problem go un-noticed due to an assumption. Sorry if I'm being too pedantic.

Followed counter clockwise with 3,4,2. Checked static timing and it sparked as expected and timing pointed about 12 degrees for my Dellorto carbs.That sounds right. I'll just add that a near stock Federal 907 with Dellortos likes 12-14 BTDC. The Static Advance given in the JH manual has more to do with meeting European emissions standards that were in place at the time, than with making the engine happy.

Tried starting and it does start, very rough but within 30 sec. saw sparks in the Dell carb filters and then stalls.Do get the ignition sorted out. Whether it was the original culprit or not, it has been apart and must be put back right.

"IF" all the components are good, then your set-up sounds right. But note that many of the distributor caps and rotors on the market now are manufactured in India or elsewhere in Asia/ the Pacific Rim. They are not 'originals', and many of them are crap out of the box. If all else fails, buy a set of Bosch cap & rotor, and replace any questionable parts.

What coil are you using? The original 23 or 25 D4 distributors are small in diameter, with appropriately small distributor caps. That puts all the plug wire terminals so close together that a hotter spark from a high performance coil can arc between the terminals inside the cap. DO NOT use a hot coil with a 23 or 25 D4. The later (sometime mid-1974 ?) 43 or 45 D4 distributors are larger in diameter, and can handle hotter coils... but only something on the order of the Lucas Sport Coil (gold body). But the really hot 'FlameThrower', 45,000 volt coils are still potentially more problematic than helpful. If you have a 'hot' coil, go back to stock-ish until your current problems are resolved.

As I stated in earlier post, when all this started I found that the distributor cap clip on engine side was off, therefore the cap was not connected. The timing should not be off just because cap was loose. Is timing off or what is next? Also, just installed new plugs and removing #1 during this process & already spark plug fouling.A loose cap 'could' be a cause of your problems. Maybe not... I can't see from here. But it does need to be secure... get both clips securely snapped.

But the previous paragraphs are a side-bar... a diversion to follow-up on your ignition adventures. As Tim Murphy pointed out, flashes seen in the air filters are not 'sparks'... as in ignition. They're flames/ small explosions due to a backfire through the carbs, and that indicates something else going on. Ignition problems such as incorrect firing order could cause a backfire, but it's unlikely the engine would start if the firing order is backwards (CW vs CCW around the cap). Since it sounds like your getting your ignition house in order, and you say the engine did start and run for ~30 seconds, I'm leaning toward my original thoughts on the matter, and suspect that you really have carb issues. Too lean of an idle mixture can cause backfiring, and the flashes you saw in the air filters.

Remove and inspect the Idle Jets for any signs of varnish deposits in their bores. If you don't see clean brass in the bores, then there is something on them (varnish), clean it off. If the build-up is crusty (like plaster), and restriction the clean bore diameter, then all that has to go. Idle Jets work with small dimensions, and anything that screws with those dimensions can restrict fuel flow, result in a lean idle mixture, and backfiring into the air filters at idle.

Do you run normal pump gas, or ethanol-free 'Non-Ox' gas? Does the car get driven much, or more to the point, how long does a tank of gas reside in the car... and carbs. Normal pump gas can go 'bad', and varnish-up the jets and interior passages in as little as 2.5 - 3.0 months.

Finish your ignition adventures. Then make your next priority pulling the jets, inspecting and cleaning.

With the carbs clean, adjust the Idle Mixture Screws... preliminarily. Then balance the carbs... which is a subject all by itself. Then re-adjust the Idle Mixture Screws as required to produce peak Manifold Vacuum. Peak Manifold Vacuum equates to peak idle rpm, but the tach on the dash is not accurate enough. Use a hand-held Tach & Dwell diagnostic meter. Tuning by ear... well, it's better than not trying at all, but the list of preference, it's somewhere futher down the list below the inaccurate dash tach.

If the engine once ran better, then just got worse after the passage of time, that just screams bad gas and plugged jets. Either clean the carbs/ jets, or confirm it's not a problem. Don't try to 'tune around it' as your first step down that road.

An engine with carbs that are way out of balance will run VERY rough, or run basically on two cylinders, spit, sputter, backfire... etc. Sound familiar?

Good luck,
Tim Engel

Last edited on 11-09-2018 03:00 am by Esprit2

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I'll put out one more possibility that some may scoff at, but just discovered this on my car and it solved most of my issues. Kind of a duh moment.

I have new silicone wires, and had of course verified that the wires were securely attached to the plugs and the boots were securely seated on the distributor cap. I had a Pertronics distributor which was leaking oil through the body because it was not designed for the horizontal mounting. Got a rebuilt Lucas from the club store and installed it. I was looking at the Pertronics and noticed that one of the outside cap connectors (#1) was black - I almost thought the copper sleeve was missing. Looking inside the cap the #1 connection had some burning as did the next one to a lesser extent. I figured out that while the silicone boots were secure, the copper connectors were not extend out enough into the boots to fully extend into the cap connectors. There was enough voltage to jump, but it rapidly carbonized the connection. When I installed the new cap I used needle nose pliers to pull out the connection a bit, seated the connection then pulled the boots over. No more missing I think - at least reduced the point that it may be my imagination now.

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You didn't say if you had an electronic ignition. If you have the stock set up with points, be sure your point gap is correct and that the point mechanism is screwed down tightly and doesn't slip.

Last edited on 11-09-2018 08:10 am by Tim Murphy

flatlanderep
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Just want to clarify, that prior to starting, #1 was at TDC with the cam gears aligned by their marks. The coil is 12 volt Bosch, plug wires are Magnecor High Performance from Delta. D. cap and rotor also from Delta and no Petronix. The previous SP wires did not fit well on the cap and several were very loose but the new ones are tight.
Steve

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Update, heard about bad condensers and found company,
British Vacuum Unit, in New Hampshire makes upgraded condenser. Installed today, made sure TDC and on timing marks. Tried starting and it will not turn over so not a condenser problem. Is it possibly coil & any way to verify if coil is working properly? Not sure what to try next...
Steve

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Hi Steve,

Does your tachometer move when you crank the engine? If not, then there is most likely a problem in your primary circuit. If the tach shows some RPM's, then try connecting one of the spark plug wires to a spark plug outside the engine with the case of the plug grounded to the engine block. When you crank the engine, there should be a strong visible spark. A weak or nonexistent spark means you have problems somewhere. You can also plug the spark plug cable directly into the coil to check if the problem is in the distributor setup.

Do you have an automotive DMM? If not, buy one. These have all sorts of functions which make diagnosing ignition problems easier, like checking if the points are bad or if the dwell angle (point gap) is off. They also usually come with instructions which should help you better understand how the circuit works. A timing light is also needed for getting the ignition timing correct. A remote starter switch does not cost much and allows you to crank the engine while standing next to the engine compartment instead of inside the car, which saves a lot of time.

Tom

flatlanderep
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Pulled #1 plug & placed on engine & I did get spark when trying to start the car. It is at TDC, piston and timing marks aligned. Question, how can I tell for sure if the engine is at the top of the exhaust or compression stroke?

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If the sprocket timing marks are aligned as shown in the manual, then you should be TDC on compression cycle on cylinder #1. When the crank goes one revolution to TDC exhaust, the cams will only have gone half way around, so the cam timing marks will not be aligned.

Do you have a can of "quick start" spray? It is available at auto parts stores. If your timing is set reasonably close to correct you should get something firing with this stuff. If not, then most likely your distributor is still not set up right. A timing light is the most reliable way to verify that the spark is occurring when it should.

If you do not trust the sprocket timing marks, I suppose you could verify the compression cycle by removing all the spark plugs except #1. Then if you hand crank the engine, it will be noticeably harder to turn as you approach TDC on the compression cycle for piston #1 due to the compressed air. Or if you electrically crank the engine, it will tend to continue going, stop and bounce back on the #1 compression cycle. All assuming that cylinder has good compression.

Attachment: sprocket alignment small.jpg (Downloaded 101 times)

Last edited on 12-12-2018 06:24 pm by Tom Bradley

flatlanderep
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Back at it tonight, went through entire process again, found #1 TDC. Connected plugs to dizzy in 1, 3, 4, 2 order. Verified coil working. Used timing light to set timing 12 degrees for the Dellorto carbs. Tried to start, no go, still just cranks but does not fire. Decided that it is now time to have it towed to get service from a mechanic. The only thing I did not check was the points but only have < 500 miles on them since changed last year. I will let you know what outcome is hoepfully when running again. Thanks for all the posts. May be time to go to electronic ignition.
Steve

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Bad condenser on the points, spend the money you were going to pay the mechanic and buy the electronic ignition.
Brett.
PS: even new condensers can be NG out of the box, been there.

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Is it best to go with Petronix & Flamethrower coil? In the past I have read on the forums about MSD or Crane Allen?

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Electronic ignition is a nice upgrade, but is not necessarily a solution. Your car should at least fire up with the old-fashioned points. Do you have a voltmeter? You can measure the voltage at the coil plug that is connected to the points. When the points are closed this voltage should be 0.3V or less. If it is higher than this there is a bad connection somewhere, most likely the points, but it could also be a poor electrical connection somewhere else along the line. There could be a bad connection in the wiring going to the distributor or the flex wire connecting between the points and the body of the distributor could have become frayed or loose. If the problem is one of these things then installing an electronic ignition may still have the same problem and leave you even more frustrated.

That you got a spark with an external plug is good, but it takes more voltage to get a spark to jump across a gap with the high pressures existing inside the cylinder. So checking that you have a good connection is something that you really should do no matter what you end up doing. Also, some DMM's also can measure capacitance, which will allow you to check whether the condenser is good or not.

I know how frustrating solving problems like these are, especially for someone new. I have been there. But it is also a nice feeling when you can get the problem fixed yourself.

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So it has been a couple months from my last post. I had AAA tow the car to a British car repair shop in Durham, NC in late Jan. After much effort on adjusting timing, car started but would not continue, cough, sputter, die. Shop diagnosed problem with valve clearances and ended up grinding the shims.Made some adjustments to idle and replaced cam timing belt. Also replaced the cam cover gaskets with silicone gaskets. It is running fairly well but shop wants to change Dellorto chokes to smaller size to improve idle and make acceleration smoother. I need advice on the charge for the work done i.e., labor for valve work, adjusting & confirming valve clearances, installing new plugs cam cover gasket,cam timing belt, choke cable, radiator hose came to $2,700. Seems excessive to me and there is not itemized labor on the bill. To replace the chokes in the carbs, the estimate is $800-1000 with parts estimated included at $200. My other concern is that there was no estimate provided. What do others think about these charges?
Steve

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flat,

I have been following your tale of woe. What I heard was your car was running good then suddenly it wasn't, it sounds like a single part failed(obviously)the hard part is finding which part that is. When it happens that fast it's unlikely two or three parts failed simultaneously.

As far as your trip to a mechanic goes, what kind of reputation does this British repair shop have? Did this shop come with a recommendation? I did a valve adjustment several years ago and I could see it being expensive to have done, it's VERY labor intensive, however $2700 seems excessive. While all the work done sounds like good stuff to do it doesn't sound like stuff that would fix the problem. It sounds like a bit of a shotgun approach and now it sounds like he wants to reload the shotgun(with your money)and take another shot at the target.

This is important, did you tell him specifically to replace all this stuff or did you tell him to fix the problem. If you told him to fix the problem, for $2700 it should be fixed. If this guy is reputable he should stand by his work and fix the problem to your satisfaction and not be asking for another $1000 to try something else.

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Steve,

I see so many issues here it is hard to know where to start. For one, I don't see how valve shims could have been the cause of your problem. To cause the car to not even run, the shims would have to have been so thick that the valves would not close which would cause low compression in the cylinders. I don't see how that could have happened so suddenly.

Second, from what I have read, grinding the shims is a major no-no: they supposedly have a hardened surface without which they can deform or break. Sounds like they may have removed the cam towers to try to find the problem and had to grind the shims because they used a thinner gasket material when they reinstalled them.

I agree with noomg that it sounds like they were floundering around with no clear idea of what was wrong. The total cost of the parts they replaced was pretty insignificant, probably $100-$200 max. So almost all the cost was labor. Given the length of time they had it, $2700 may not be excessive if they were actually doing stuff to it. They should have their hourly rate posted. From that you can calculate how many hours they should have spent on it. Another possibility is that they kept it as a back-burner project that they worked on occasionally and did not keep any accurate account of how much time they actually put into it. In which case the final price would be more along the lines of what they thought they could get away with.

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To re shim the valves requires the head be removed and reinstalled. That is a lot of work, sometimes has to be done two times to get clearances right Also requires a new head gasket which is a $100 part. Two things surprise me. One, in California, a written estimate is required before the work is done. Two, I have read or was told that you are not suppose to grind shims down as that weakens them. Not sure about that. Also, I suggested doing a compression check when you were having problems. That would have indicated some info on valve condition and valve clearances. The valve clearances can be checked at home, requires removing the valve covers and can be checked cold. JH repair manual gives the specs. In any case, the $2,700 seems high to me (all mechanic work seems high to me) but not terribly excessive. I have ZS's but the cost for replacing chokes in carbs seems high as I have read many post here where guys have done it themselves. Hopefully others here will have more experience with this type of thing. Good luck and take care.

noomg
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Steve,

You say it runs "fairly well", is fairly well something you can live with? I would think $2700 would buy "runs like a top". I'd be reluctant to return to this British car shop, another $1000 might only buy "a little bit better".

One thing I noticed after re-reading your posts is you gapped your sparkplugs at .035, the manual calls for a gap of .023 so if you're running a stock ignition with a sparkplug gap of .035 you're probably going to get some missing. I'd check for proper gap before doing anything else, it'll be the cheapest, easiest thing you can do.

redracer
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The standard for valve shimming is 12 hours of labor; the Loctite #518 cam tower-to-head anaerobic gasket cement is a less than $15, the shims maybe $7/shim?, the cam cover gaskets(orange ones from JHPS) about $36, and the seloc washers around $18, so yes, you are paying a
lot(local hourly rate is $72.hour--yours may be higher??).
The valve shims should NOT be less than 0.060", or breaking of the shim is very likely(read $$$$$$$).
btw, someone posted taking the head off, but this is not necessary. I have shimmed many cars with the head on in the car(yes, there are a few tricks to making sure you don't lose a shim or nut down the oil returns).
In short, I would definitely find out what this person's hourly rate is and demand an itemized bill; you will likely need to go somewhere else
bruce

noomg
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Tim,

FYI, when I did a valve adjustment a few years ago I didn't find it necessary to remove the head, only the cam towers. I was also told the job might require removing and replacing the towers a couple of times. Maybe I did something wrong but I had to R&R the cam towers at least a half dozen times(lost count)until I was satisfied the gap was correct. But you're right Tim, no matter how you approach it it's a very labor intensive operation.

The reason I did a valve adjustment was to get past the CA smog test not because the car was running poorly, it ran fine before valve adjustment. Any mechanic worth his salt should have known a valve adjustment wasn't going to solve this problem.

Sorry Steve, unless you specifically told this shop to adjust your valves I think you got hosed.



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