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Got it started  Rating:  Rating
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 Posted: 02-14-2015 03:17 am
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Bfitz241
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Didn't know where else this would fit, so....  I got my JH started today. It ran very badly.  It has Dellorto 45Es that have allegedly been rebuilt [to be fair, the parts I inspected were clean], however, it would only run on the accelerator pump.  Stop pumping the pedal, engine dies.  I inspected the plugs and they were fouled, so that is a no brainer for replacement and I pulled the distributor cap.  I think I found the real problem.  The ignition is an MSD triggered by points.  But even that won't cut it when the points are covered in oil. HOPEFULLY, after I clean them I will have a better report.
Anybody think I'm on the right track?  I'm hesitant to blame carburetion when the ignition is questionable.
But I still have the Zeniths as an insurance policy.
If I'm in the wrong forum, please let me know....I'll move..

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 Posted: 02-16-2015 07:11 pm
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Tom Bradley
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Sounds like the kind of thing I went through getting mine running after several years in storage. One of the problems I had was the plugs getting repeatedly carbon fouled because I was running it cold and rich for relatively short periods. So I had to keep replacing the plugs to find the other problems.

My guess is that the points are not a big deal. If you have an electronic ignition, the points are just a signal with very little current going through. They would have to be very bad for it not to work. Though cleaning them certainly will remove any doubt. While you have it out, also check the distributor cap. My experience is that they tend to break down fairly regularly with the higher voltage of electronic ignitions. Last time I replaced mine I coated the outside with clear epoxy to increase the insulation thickness.

From the description, my first guess would be carburetors and/or vacuum. But I am not familiar with Dellortos, so I do not know how they behave when they have problems. Others can probably help you more there. Maybe in the fuel system forum.

Good luck and let us know how it is going.

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 Posted: 02-16-2015 08:51 pm
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Bfitz241
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Thanks for the encouragement. Looks like previous owner tried to do the right thing, but time has not been kind. Spoke to my friend with the distributor machine, and will be into that soon. Maybe this week. In the interim, I jumped the MSD box as a test and got a weird reaction from the coil...the power was tracking from the center tower down to the positive in on the coil. Never saw that before. The output from the center lead was, in my opinion, weak...especially for an MSD driven system. Plan now includes new coil, new plug wires [I think that alone will be huge] and new plugs.
If the distributor passes muster, I'll get one of the red rotors that I've been told are better with high voltages.
If the distributor does not pass muster, I will either rebuild it or put serious time into a crank trigger.

I inspected the Dellortos, so far all the jets are clear. I left my notes in the shop but remember they have 36mm chokes. But fuel is useless without fire, so ignition first.

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 Posted: 02-17-2015 05:27 am
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Tom Bradley
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Sounds like a good plan. You might also check the connectors in the coil primary circuit. In my case I found some loose and corroded connections and frayed wires that were increasing the resistance and reducing the amount of spark energy.

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 Posted: 02-17-2015 02:17 pm
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Jim Ketcham
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I always go back to basics to trouble shoot an engine. It's either spark or fuel. If there is strong spark at the spark plug at the right time then it's fuel. I think you are on the right track tackling ignition first.
You do not mention how long the car has been idled or if it ran well with the Dellorto carbs and MSD previously. The car's history is important before we can make good assumptions.
Before tackling the carbs I would confirm the fuel is fresh, the filter is not plugged including the filters at the Dellorto carb inlets, and the fuel pressure is correct ( 2.5psi for Dellortos). I have found that properly jetted and tuned Dellortos are close to bullet proof and require minimal adjustment.
If you do not know the history of the car and whether it ran well previously in its current configuration you may have to check the Dellorto jetting. Recommended jetting for the stock 907, as well as, 2.2 L stroker configurations can be found on this board. I have found the jetting recommendations listed by Greg Fletcher to work excellently and have used them on several stock and 2.2L engines with great results.
Good luck,
Jim

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 Posted: 02-20-2015 03:05 am
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Bfitz241
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I've never seen the car run. Probably hasn't been run in 10 yrs. The Dellortos have been rebuilt, by a carb guy not me. The fuel tank is in the back of my pickup and I'm running it on an outboard gas tank with an inline electric fuel pump. I also ran fuel through the line to carry out any crap. Fuel tank has been cleaned and sealed at a radiator shop. I won't install it until the car runs. I only need this thing to run onto and off a trailer. Then I'll get fancy. The PO has the MSD wired up like a hobbyist, in other words he didn't read the directions. I'll correct that by running the hot/ground directly to the battery. I also suspect no grounds straps to the engine from the frame. Why the Brits ground their electrics through the body tub will always be a mystery to me, such a bad system. Independent grounds to a ground stud then to the battery.

I'd also like some opinions on whether those Dellortos are even worth it. I have the complete Z/S carbs and manifold and since this car won't be raced, or get an exhaust header, I wonder if ITB carburetion is even worth the tuning hassles. How much more power do they really generate?

But I still need to get the oil off the points and inspect that distributor.

Last edited on 02-20-2015 03:07 am by Bfitz241

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 Posted: 02-20-2015 03:25 pm
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Jensen Healey
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I've read that the ZS carb cars were down about 20hp. Take that with a grain of salt.

If the PO installed Dellortos and MSD, I would be looking for other performance modifications. Is it possible the pistons, cams, and possibly the crankshaft are uprated items?

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 Posted: 02-20-2015 08:37 pm
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Bfitz241
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It is quite possible, but it does have the cast iron manifold and an exhaust system with 2 mufflers inline...so it should be very quiet. Not performance mufflers either.

What type of cranking compression does a stock 907 generate? Maybe I can figure it out with a compression gauge.

Today I took the distributor apart...overall it was in very good condition, especially the bushing and shaft. They were in very good shape. I changed the inner and outer seals, cleaned and lubed the advance mechanism, cleaned and set the points. The wires under the cap are soaked in oil. I hope this doesn't cause cross talk. The wire out from the points was cracked and brittle so I made up a new one. The interesting thing was the vacuum can. It actually worked perfectly and held vacuum. Too bad the end of the spring that attaches to the breaker plate had corroded off. The breaker plate is free to move as it chooses. SO, now I need to stabilize the breaker plate, and the easiest way is to install another advance can. May I be so bold as to ask for recommendations? They seem to be about $100 so I'd like to buy as few as possible.
I also ran the dist on the machine. All RPM will be crank rpm, halve it for dist rpm. It starts advancing at 1200/1*, 1300/3*, 1600/4*, 1800/5*, 2000/6*, 2200/7*, 2400/9*, 2600/10*, 2800/12*, 3200/14*, 3600/15*, 4200/16*, 4600/17*, 5200/18, 7000/18.5* Point bounce began to set in around 5500-5700. Red Lucas points.
Very drawn out curve. It has an 18* advance limiter so that's about right, but I'm really wondering about those springs.
So that's where I'm at. I need to buy some parts. I'm going to search the ignition forum for a CORRECT curve, and if anyone has an opinion on a vac can or spring set I would be very appreciative.

Last edited on 02-20-2015 08:38 pm by Bfitz241

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 Posted: 02-21-2015 01:03 am
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Jim Ketcham
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You can drill a small hole and pin the braker plate so it is stationary. It is not vacuum advance but vacuum retard and only comes on federal cars to meet emissions. The European JHs with the Dellortos did not come with the vac retard distributor and only used centrifugal advance.

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 Posted: 02-21-2015 02:05 am
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Bfitz241
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I'm actually a fan of part throttle vacuum advance, so I'm going to put some effort into finding a can that works.

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 Posted: 02-27-2015 04:16 pm
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Jim Ketcham
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Your advance curve appears to be a bit off. Max advance for both the Stromberg or Dellorto stock engines is 17.0 degrees at 2500 rpm.
for your Dellorto setup with stock engine:
1200/2.0
1400/4.4
1600/6.8
1800/9.0
2000/11.4
2400/16.0
2500/17.0 max advance

Either the distributor is not original to JH (MG maybe?) or the advance springs and/or weights are messed up.

I do not know if I was clear in my earlier post, but you should NOT be using VACUUM RETARD on the Dellorto configuration. Even on the Stromberg configuration it does not offer any performance benefit. The Dellorto configuration came with the Lucas 23D distributor that does not have a vacuum module on it.

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 Posted: 02-27-2015 08:17 pm
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Bfitz241
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I saw those figures in the manual...unfortunately I left it with the car....is that crank degrees or distributor degrees?

I was able to get a vacuum advance can for the 25D, so I reassembled the distributor with the new seals, o rings and springs I got, and put it back together. I had the usual teething pains getting the dist drive lined up, but succeeded on the second attempt. The timing however, was so out of spec I had to loosen the timing belt to adjust it from the pulley. Set it to about 12* to 14* initial [using a test light] tightened everything back up, checked the pulleys and hit the key. It actually runs. Not too badly either. Carbs need to be synced and tuned but it idles on its own. 60psi cold oil pressure. I think it'll be OK. Even charges the battery.

Last edited on 02-28-2015 04:27 am by Bfitz241

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 Posted: 03-06-2015 03:07 pm
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Jensen Healey
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There are many vacuum advance and vacuum retard diaphragms available for the 25D. The JH used vacuum retard for pollution control, exactly the opposite of what is needed for performance.
Adapting an actual vacuum advance seems like a great idea to me.

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 Posted: 03-06-2015 08:11 pm
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Frank Schwartz
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On all the JH's we have had and those I occasionally work on, I remove the vacuum advance unit altogether...and replace it with a block out unit from Jeff Schlemmer of Advanced Distributors...his web site is jeff@advanceddistributors.com and if I remember correctly it is a very well engineered unit and still retains the micro adjust to the distributor. Odd your vacuum retard works at all...most I have seen are a source of air leak in the system and best blocked out or removed.
Jeff's unit, again, if I remember is about 45 dolalrs and well worth it, I think.
Frank

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 Posted: 03-06-2015 08:23 pm
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Frank Schwartz
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Gave you the wrong email site...the web site is http://www.advanceddistributors.com and the unit is listed for the 22D and 25D distributors and is as I thought 45 dollars.
Frank

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 Posted: 03-07-2015 12:15 am
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Bfitz241
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Thanks for the info.
I did remove the vac retard...the end of the spring had rotted off, but the can did hold vacuum. Replaced it with an advance unit....so far, I'm happy with the results.

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 Posted: 03-08-2015 03:46 pm
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Jensen Healey
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The vacuum capsule was a 4-6-4R giving 4 degrees of retard at 4 to 6 inches mercury.

The vacuum capsule does not change the timing under load, but during off throttle deceleration when the mixture is lean. I believe the retard capsule was used to limit certain pollutants at idle.

I did find a 4-6-4 capsule listed for Lotus with 45D4 up to 1980. It would be prudent to contact the experts:
http://www.britishvacuumunit.com

There's an article on vacuum advance here: http://www.chevytalk.org/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/239321/

Cheers, Kurt

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 Posted: 04-14-2015 10:36 pm
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Bfitz241
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Had a productive day today. Radiator out, and it's starting to fall apart, has scale on the inside and some green corrosion at the bottom of the core. It's a 3 core, which is good. The fan clutch is leaking ever so slightly so I fear its life is probably over. Water pump out, looked ok but I took it out so it's getting rebuilt. All the hoses are garbage and the clamps have seized so the hoses were cut.
Took out the master cylinder and am in the process of taking out the booster. There's rust on the body below the booster I want to attend to so even though it works, it's coming out.
One question; are the front fenders bolted or welded on?
Thanks

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 Posted: 04-15-2015 07:27 pm
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Art DeKneef
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Bolted for the most part. There should be two tack welds. One on each end on the top. Once you clean everything you should be able to see them.

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 Posted: 04-16-2015 04:45 pm
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answerman
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If you haven't taken the booster out yet (maybe you know this already) the easiest way is to just remove the pedal box. You can do it all from under the hood, with one minor exception.


First, go under the dash and unbolt the S shaped accelerator pedal extension from the pedal box. Then, go back under the hood and remove the 6 or 8 bolts (don't remember exactly) from the pedal box and then withdraw the whole pedal box into the engine compartment. Then, all you have to do is disconnect the throttle and clutch cables from the pedals. Once that's done, it all comes out as a unit (you have to wiggle it around a little but it does come through no problem). Then you can remove the booster from the pedal box in a nice comfortable place like your workbench. I did it twice about a month ago, the whole process takes about 10 minutes and doesn't require any under the dash contortion other than unbolting the accelerator pedal.

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