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Rick Willard
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Hey Folks,

I'm scratching my head on this one, so I'm asking for some expertise from my fellow club members....  My JH is a real nice one that I just acquired last month.  One of the small issues I knew would have to be addressed is that the car is making a strange noise that actually comes and goes.  I'll try to describe it well, but will field any questions from those of you who might have a theory.  This is actually my 4th JH and I thought I had pretty much heard just about every bad noise a JH can make.  However, this one is a mystery so far.

The noise I'm talking about is a low wallowing noise that I/we initially thought might have been some sort of dry bearing...oil sump?  timing belt tensioner bearings?  water pump?  clutch-related?  gearbox?.  But the pattern is strange.  When you get in the car and drive it, the noise is non-existent.  Once it gets warmed up, you start to hear this noise that follows the RPM's and will slowly get louder.  It does not follow the speed of the car, and it doesn't matter if the clutch is engaged or not.  It follows the RPM's of the engine.  One footnote, you especially hear this noise coming from the passenger side.

One of the initial theories we had is a faulty exhaust at the center resonator (loose baffle vibrating and/or expanding under heat). That theory has been dispelled after we installed a replacement exhaust system (bottom of headers to the tail pipe). The replacement exhaust system was virtually brand new, so we know that's good.

The strange thing is that you can be very frustrated listening to this noise, and then...even when the engine is still warm...it just stops and goes for several more minutes without any noise at all.  One of the theories we have is that the noise is possibly the sound of "air pushing through a tube."  We're pretty convinced that the engine and transmission are generally very solid (running with 45mm Dellortos) and the receipt file that came with the car would confirm that it has been very well kept leading up to my purchase. 

If anyone here has any initial thoughts, I'm all ears.  Again, have heard our JH's make many noises over the years, but this is one I've never heard before.

Thanks in advance for your time and insights!

Rick


Jensen Healey
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Hi Rick, I think you are right about the tensioner bearings and water pump. Maybe try some WD40 to see if the noise changes.

Tom Bradley
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Sounds most like a water pump bearing to me. These can make all kinds of strange noises. It can also change depending on whether the thermostat is open, letting water through or not, which would explain it going away sometimes when the car is warm.

I suppose it could also be the thermostat itself.  If something has come loose, it could be making strange sounds when the coolant is flowing.

It does not sound like the cam belt to me, but you can rule this out by tightening it a bit and see if the sound is then present all the time.

You should be able to narrow down the location by driving the car until the noise starts and then parking it and using a tube to listen to various suspect spots around the engine.

Last edited on 11-02-2014 02:29 am by Tom Bradley

Jim Ketcham
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You can eliminate the water pump and alternator as sources by removing the fan belt during a noisy period. Obviously you will not have cooling so limit your operation accordingly.

Rick Willard
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Thanks for the input, guys. All of this makes good sense to me. By the way, Tom and Jim, you might be on to something. I didn't mention it before, but the alternator is showing signs that it is nearing end of life (voltmeter shows good charging with just the engine running, but the Ignition light surges on/off when the fan, lights, etc. are on). Using a solid tube to detect vibrations around suspect points on the motor has been suggested to me once before (will heed that advice). The temporary removal of the alternator belt might tell us about water pump/alternator. Glad to hear any other theories out there? Otherwise, will advise of the outcome when it's determined. Again, many thanks for the suggestions!

Tom Bradley
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The electrical problem you are describing sounds more like one or more bad connections rather than the alternator itself. My experience with these alternators is that they either work 100% or not at all. But on both of the rebuilds of these cars I have done, I spent much time repairing or replacing electrical connectors throughout. Spade ends, like on the alternator, can usually be cleaned up with steel wool. If the connection is loose, the female ends on the wires can sometimes be tightened up with a pair of pliers. But most of the time I ended up cutting these off and replacing them. Many of the strands going into these connectors also get broken over time, so only a few strands are left to conduct the power. Also check the connections in the fuse box. In my current car, these were in seriously bad shape when I got it. Also check the ground connection between the engine and the body of the car. This can also get pretty bad, especially on the body end, but if the starter is cranking OK, it is probably OK.

Rick Willard
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Hey Guys,

For any of you watching this thread, I'm still open to suggestions. Here's what I know....

* Engine has been thoroughly checked and there is agreement that the problem is not any of the things mentioned above. It is NOT the cam belt tensioner bearings, the water pump, the oil sump, etc. The engine itself seems to run extremely well, has great compression, etc. We ran the car briefly without the fan belt to eliminate the water pump and/or alternator as the culprit. The noise was still there. Mechanic (with 40 years of classic British experience, including the JH) checked all parts of the motor thoroughly with mechanic's stethoscope, and he feels that the engine is strong with no apparent issues.

* The noise starts at about 1,500 RPM's and is especially evident up to...about 3,500-4,000 before the noise of the engine drowns out the noise (if it is there at all).

* The noise is intermittent. It is not evident when it is cold. Once the engine is warmed up, you begin to hear it. Sometimes, the noise is not there at all, even when warm. The car was driven 20+ miles this morning in city and highway, and the car was perfect (no noise). Tonight, came back from a 10-mile freeway cruise and the noise was obvious coming on and off the ramps.

* The noise has a very similar tone as you rev the engine. In other words, when it starts at 1,500, it has the same TONE (low wallowing sound) as it does at 3,000, with just a higher intensity. It seems to be coming from the back of the engine toward the rear of the car. This might lead us to the clutch, throwout bearing, pilot, etc, BUT...the noise is the exact same whether or not the clutch is engaged and the (4-speed) tranny seems to shift pretty smoothly.

Any/all input is welcome. Thanks, everyone!

Rick

Jensen Healey
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It's starting to look like the main bearings. As the block warms up and expands, the bearing tolerance widens.

What oil are you running? Hopefully a 20-50 with ZDDP like Valvoline Racing.

You could try some Lucas heavy duty oil stabilizer to see if it changes or eliminates the noise. If so, the mains need replacing.

Greg Fletcher
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I had a rear axel bearing on the way out once and it was making the noise you describe. It's a strange wallowing noise and it's nearly impossible to pinpoint while you're driving the car and it obviously varies with speed. If you're sure it's really engine RPM related, then that would certainly not be it.

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Does the sound change depending on the load on the engine? The only experience I had with bad main bearings (not JH), the sound was louder under acceleration. What is puzzling is that it comes and goes. Maybe excessive end float? If the crank shifts too much one way or the other, then the noise starts?

It could be the clutch, since the housing and pressure plate are bolted to the flywheel and so are always turning with the engine. I don't know what in the clutch would cause this type of noise unless a rivet has come loose or something.

I would rule out the throwout or pilot bearings: I have had both of those go bad: they sound like a high-pitched whine. Unless maybe the pilot bearing is completely destroyed and the transmission shaft is shifting out of alignment with the crank. This does not seem likely, though, unless you have been hearing a high pitched whine when shifting for some time.

Last edited on 11-10-2014 07:15 pm by Tom Bradley

Rick Willard
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Last edited on 11-10-2014 07:46 pm by Rick Willard

Rick Willard
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This is a very good question, Tom, and I'm sorry I didn't cover it with previous commentary. The noise is more obvious when there is NOT a load on the engine. In other words, as I'm slowing down, step on the clutch, and give the engine a slight rev in the RPM range I mentioned...that's when you REALLY hear this low wallowing noise. But even during acceleration, it's there. It's just not as prevalent with the engine/drivetrain building revs and speed. Again, the TONE stays the same, but the intensity changes with the engine speed.

One other bit of information. Last night I had the privilege of speaking with the owner who had the car from 1988 - 2012. He purchased the car with 32K documented miles in '88, did a meticulous cosmetic restoration, and only put 16K miles on it during his 24 years of ownership. He is CERTAIN that the odometer reading of 49K miles today is correct (owner from 2012-2014 only put 1,500 miles on it). He also confirmed that, while he replaced the head gasket once and did the oil pan gasket once...the engine has never been rebuilt. So...it's an awfully original example.

I'm certainly not dismissing the main bearing theory mentioned here (I am currently running Valvoline 20/50 synthetic with VVR). I just don't know for sure that it's the mains because I've had several folks with years of JH experience tell me that they just don't believe it's coming out of the engine at all. If it is a main bearing, I'm not too worried, as I have a 2.2 crank w/ bearings, oversized pistons, and bored out liners ready to go. This might be all the excuse I need to go forward with an upgrade. But honestly, I don't like just replacing parts to eliminate theories. I'd rather diagnose the problem with reasonable certainty, if I can.

Thanks again for chiming in here, guys.

Cheers!

Rick

Last edited on 11-10-2014 07:40 pm by Rick Willard

Tom Bradley
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I agree that a well-maintained J-H with such low mileage is unlikely to have internal bearing problems. So my next guess would be external parts which tend to degrade with time rather than mileage, such as the engine dampener, rubber engine mounts and rubber and plastic parts on the intake.

What is interesting is that the noise is greatest when revved with no load. This is the situation where the engine will twist the most. If you have the original Stromberg setup, one possibility is the hose between the airbox and the air filter is loose or has a slit in it which opens up when the engine tilts over.

Rick Willard
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Thanks again, Tom.

Did a quick huddle with the folks who have seen and heard this noise and we agree that it's not the mains. If it was, we would hear more of a rhythmical noise that would coincide with each combustion stroke as it loads the crankshaft. That doesn't fit this noise, so we'll eliminate that possiblity...for now.

Tom, you mentioned the airbox, and one of the descriptions of this wallowing noise is that it "sounds like air being pushed through a tube." This car has 45mm Dellortos with individual K&N filters for each carburetor (aftermarket). It also has a separate K&N filter for the separate tube running into the bell housing. We've run the engine with all these filters removed and it didn't change the noise. So.... Hmmmmm....???

The one thing that has been emphasized to me is that this is not a major thing. A couple of folks have said "sounds pretty normal to me for a JH..." We all agree that this noise is not not likely to lead to some catastrophic failure. However, having owned a few JH's before (with Strombergs and Dellortors) and never having this problem...it just bugs me.

Tom, thanks again to you (and everyone else) for your time. One way or another...we'll figure it out.

Cheers!

Rick

gmgiltd
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Hi Rick,
I would tend to go with Gregs suggestion - rear axle bearings. I have had a similar low intermittent rumble which varied slightly depending on load/overrun/corners and roundabouts.
After eliminating driveshaf, differential and brakes I am pretty sure it's the rear axle bearings on my car and will be replacing them as soon as the bearing retainers arrive.
Gordon

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Wheel bearing retaining bushes arrived from Delta yesterday (very good service) and the new bearings installed this morning. Brief test drive of 20 miles and it would seem that the rumbling noise has been cured.
Gordon

Rick Willard
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Gordon...thanks so much for taking the time to share. I REALLY appreciate it. Unfortunately, I don't think this issue is the same as yours (was). I know that this string of messages is getting a bit long/ugly, but you'll see above I mentioned that the wallowing noise is following the RPM's/engine, and not the speed of the wheels, steering, load, overrun, etc. In fact, you can hear this noise when the engine is warm and the car is sitting still being revved a bit. So, for me, I think the mystery continues. Again, SINCEREST thanks for taking the time to share some insights!

Cheers!

Rick

Greg Fletcher
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A bad thrust bearing at the back of the crankshaft would allow too much lateral movement and possibly create some weird noise. I've seen a couple few of these deformed for reasons unknown on low mileage cars.

Rick, can you make a video and post it on youtube?

Rick Willard
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Now that is an interesting idea, Greg. Haven't even considered that before.... I will be glad to post a video as soon as I can. I'll need my rebuilt alternator back from you first to refit the fan belt.... :) Kidding...will get something out for review/consideration ASAP. Thanks again!!

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Hi Rick,

This might be way off but it is an easy check.
During the Summer I experienced a similar intermitent noise coming from my Engine compartment.
I actually thought I had valve issues or worse.
Checking everything showed that my engine was OK.
What I finally found was that my Vacuum hose going to the Booster was collapsing under high Vacuum causing a gasping sound which from the drivers seat actually sounded as a mechanical error.

I just disconnected the hose and drove the car for a short trip ( be ware of very bad braking performance)
New hose on and everything sounded normal again.

BR
Kim

Tom Bradley
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Funny coincidence.  Just this weekend I had a noise suddenly crop up that sounded much like this.  It was a fairly high-pitched swirling noise, like a bearing going bad, but was intermittent and independent of engine speed or load.  I tracked it down to the oil pump/filter area.  Since the oil pressure is pretty constant, my guess was a tear in the oil filter flapping around.  It was not near due for a change, but oil and filter changes being about the cheapest thing I can do to this car, I changed them.  So far, the noise seems to be gone.  Worth a try.

Rick Willard
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Hey Tom, Kim, Gordon, and Greg,

Thanks for the input, guys.

I had a chance to disconnect the vacuum going to the brake boost. The hose seems to be in very good condition and a disconnect at the brake boost combined with a little revving of the engine resulted in a good strong suction going through the hose (no blockage), and the engine continuing to make this noise once it's warm. Darn it....

Tom, on your oil filter idea, this noise was actually evident before AND after an oil change just 45 days ago. Plus, my oil filter is mounted remotely, away from the engine, up against the passenger side frame rail. So, I'm gonna probably have to eliminate that idea, but...a good one and thanks for mentioning it, as I never considered such a thing.

Perhaps Greg's theory of a faulty thrust bearing is gaining momentum? If so, maybe it'll be the excuse I need to go ahead and build my 2.2.

This week, the weather looks good, and I should be able to replicate the noise and capture it on a decent video for review. Thanks again to all for taking the time to share some ideas.

Cheers!

Rick

Last edited on 12-08-2014 10:15 pm by Rick Willard

Rick Willard
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Hey Guys,

Sorry this post has gotten so long. As I've said repeatedly, I'll take any insights.

Today, I pulled onto my street after driving about 80 miles, I made this video with my phone. You'll hear that I mention that the noise is "coming from the back of the engine." That includes the bell housing/transmission. You don't hear the noise as badly from right under the hood. You really hear it sitting in the driver seat.

http://www.youtube.com/attribution_link?a=uyWHqKTusfU&u=/watch%3Fv%3D-2UXOa7HjuM%26feature%3Dem-upload_owner

Hopefully this link can be copied into your browser? Thanks again, everyone!

Rick

Tom Bradley
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The link worked, but the video was "private", so I could not access it. Can you change it to public?

Rick Willard
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Sorry! Just fixed it. Hopefully, you can see it now? Thanks!

Rick

Tim Murphy
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I just listened once, just sounded like a exhaust system/muffler resonance during deceleration. Actually, the engine sounded good to me.

Rick Willard
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Thanks, Tim. We actually thought the same thing right off the bat. We replaced the exhaust system from the bottom of the headers to the tail pipe with a virtually brand new JHPS/Delta exhaust system. Noise remained unchanged. It's not there at all until about 10-15 minutes of running it. Then, it really gets a little loud/annoying. It sounds like a low wallowing noise and might be coming from the back of the engine or transmission tunnel. Thanks for taking the time to share a good idea!

Tom Bradley
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Sounds like something loosening up and resonating, though exactly what is a puzzle. I do not hear any high frequency clanks like I would if it were two pieces of bare metal. So I think it would be something that is buffered with oil or grease lubricant, gasket material or rubber. Since the frequency is so low, I would expect it to be something fairly large or heavy. Possibly the exhaust system is heating something nearby, such as the transmission rear mount? I think you will have to get under the car to see if you can locate the source of the sound more exactly. It is also possible that the higher frequency sounds are getting absorbed by the carpeting and undercoat and it will sound different from underneath.

Jim Ketcham
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If the sound occurs while the car is not moving (previously post) then it is not drive train. My hearing is not what it used to be, but it sounds just like intake air noise from Dellorto carbs used without the air box. I had to give up on my K&N filters and return to the air box configuration because my resonant intake noise was too loud during accelerations. Unfortunately, Dellorto air boxes are getting hard to find. If I heard correctly your noise follows accels. It definitely sounds like resonance noise. Since it appears you eliminated the exhaust I vote for the intake. Either way it does not sound like engine trouble. Engine sounds pretty good.

Tom Bradley
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One more thought: the cabin heater core can come loose on these cars. You can check by pushing and pulling on the pair of hoses going through the fire wall. Though I have no idea what this would sound like if it was vibrating.

This is probably not useful, but I was wondering if the sound is the same with the top up and down. When I put the top up on my car, it amplifies the low frequency exhaust noise rather annoyingly. But it does this all the time, not just when wared up.

Rick Willard
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Hi Tom and Jim and anyone following this post. Sorry if this ridiculous string has become a bit of a mess. And thanks to you guys and anyone else who has chimed in. If I explain something further that goes against your suggestions, please don't take it as a lack of gratitude for taking a few minutes to share an idea. I apprecaite it!

The heater core was interesting to me, because it is one of the only flaws with the car. The PO bypassed the heater core, due to a leak. I'll fix it soon, but in the meantime, I compared this box assembly to one I already had. They are virtually the same. I revved the engine and grabbed the core connections at the firewall...shaking it just a tiny bit...the noise didn't change at all. If THAT was the problem, the tone would have almost certainly changed a bit, and it didn't. I'll fix/replace this core soon, but...I don't expect the noise to change from that.

Jim, regarding the Dellorto K&N filter suggestion, this was interesting to me. However, if it WAS at the intake, I would almost certainly hear it pretty loudly when I'm listening crouched right over the engine. Believe it or not, the noise is louder when I'm sitting in the driver seat and the noise seems to be resonating from the transmission tunnel right next to me.

Speaking of that, the last time I drove the car, the noise was getting a tiny bit louder. I almost welcome that, so I can more easily figure it out. Tom, I agree that this needs a listen from below. I think I'm going to just get it warmed up, make sure the noise is there, and put it up on a lift to listen to this up close. While I don't know what it is, exactly, I feel pretty confident that it's coming from the back of the engine, tranny tunnel, clutch, or...something strange like that.

Thanks again to all who have shared some ideas here. Happy Holidays!

Rick

Jim Ketcham
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Rick,
The noise I hear really sounds like a throaty air noise. The location you describe, driver's side rear engine/transmission is where the exhaust resonator is. I recall you changed the exhaust system. Does the new one have a decent resonator. I had to replace the one that came with a free flow system from DMS because it was inadequate. I resurrected an earlier version of their resonator from a parts car and it cured my noise problem. I admit I like quiet in my old age. On a friends car we had a local muffler shop fit an extra one in before the axle and that worked also.
If I am listening to the wrong noise I apologize and my suggestions are not correct.
I think getting the car on a lift will really help. One caution though. If the lift is like mine (2 post) and unweights the axles, the exhaust clearances change and you may miss a contact point problem. I've seen people put new exhaust systems on and when the car was lowered onto its suspension the clearance change resulted in exhaust system contact giving some strange noises. Good luck and keep us posted.
Jim

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Thanks, Jim!

I think I'll take it to the local British shop for another review. When I took it to them the first time to try to diagnose this noise, the exhaust theory immediately came up. I loved the idea because I had an extra system available that was almost brand new. The owner of the shop I mentioned (super strong British background with 4+ decades of British experience) was scratching his head, too. Because the tone of the noise remained low/unchanged and that it sounded like "air pushing through a tube," the exhaust theory seemed plausible. We were surprised that the exhaust system switch had no effect.

By the way regarding the switch, they took the previous exhaust (a 90's era DMS system in excellent condition) and replaced it with the extra one I had that was virtually brand new (just 3K miles on it before my infamous car fire of my last JH in 2007). The biggest difference between those systems is the center resonator. On the newer version, the center resonator is a longer "tube-shaped" design. All the exhaust mounts were redone in first class fashion and the install looked great, but...on the first test drive...lo and behold...the noise was still there.

Anyway, Jim...thank you again for spending a few minutes of your schedule to provide input. I'll look for an opportunity to get the car up on a rack (mindful of the 2-post/4-post lift) and listen to the noise from underneath.

Cheers!

Rick

Rick Willard
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Hello to anyone who commented on this string and provided me input.

I might...MIGHT...be the happiest JH owner on the planet today. I had a buddy of mine (mechanic, but not a British mechanic) look at the car. He ran a mechanic's stethoscope all over the engine and said "hey, I'm not a master of this engine, but I feel a very slight vibration coming out of the top of your distributor." We took the distributor out and frankly...it looked OK. It was leaking oil through it, but mechanically...it spun OK and seemed like it was working fine. But, the fact that it had points and was leaking oil through the inside was enough to make me go ahead and just grab a new Pertronix distributor.

I did so and installed it on a rainy day last weekend. Everything went together well, and sitting in the garage...it sounded every bit as good as my last JH engine when I installed the Pertronix. So with some clear weather today, I finally had the chance to drive the car a bit...just finished almost 50 miles. I ran it up to 95 mph or so...rock solid. And I ran it stop light to stop light for at least 20 of those miles. I did not hear the noise one single time...not once! Can you believe that?

Now, I'm not 100% convinced it's fixed just yet. But I'll tell you that in the 8 months I've owned this car, I was never able to drive it more than 20 miles under those conditions without having the car sound like it was possessed. My fingers are crossed that the problem is solved and it's going to be a GREAT summer under the sun!

Thanks again to all for your help and input.

Cheers!!

Rick

Last edited on 05-02-2015 08:00 pm by Rick Willard



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