| Moderated by: Greg Fletcher | ||
| Author | Post | |||||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|
Jim Picot Member
|
I'm about to pull down the rear suspension and, among other things, fit new springs. But reading the workshop manual, you need to "punch out" and replace the peened bush. Replacement requires the use of a special tool, VR2061, which folds over the top of the new bush to keep the spring seat and insulator attached to the spring. This seems an awfully crude method - I presume when Vauxhall designed this for their Viva, they never dreamed anyone would keep the car long enough to want to do this. Is there another way? A suitable screwed fastener? Or how does one correctly peen the bush without the special tool? Anyone's experience here would be greatly appreciated! Jim |
|||||||||
|
Art DeKneef Member
|
When I did mine in order to remove the metal bush I lightly used a drill bit to remove the metal enough until I could remove the bush. Having a drift the approximate size helped in removing the bush. This wasn't the correct way to peen the bush but I used a rounded metal bar and hammer in order to round over the edges to hold them together. |
|||||||||
|
Jim Picot Member
|
Hi Art, thanks for the info. But I am having trouble sourcing most of the parts in the rear spring assembly. I can probably clean the old ones up ok, but the bushes are hard to find, and of course have to be destroyed to get the old assemblies apart. Any idea where I might find the bushes? I'm waiting for an answer from Delta at the moment. |
|||||||||
|
Art DeKneef Member
|
I'm pretty sure I got them from Delta. But that was more than a few years ago when I worked on that set of springs. |
|||||||||
|
Jim Picot Member
|
Yep, Delta have them still, along with the spring seat and attachment screw. They're all ridiculously cheap given their scarcity! (I hope Delta don't read this and jack up the prices...) |
|||||||||
|
Jim Picot Member
|
Post Script - Job done. No problem drilling out the bush with a 1/2" drill - quick and easy. Then I used with a 20 mm dia x 250 mm long bar under the bush to support it while I pressed down on the bush from above with a ball-pein hammer in the 20T press. No good - the crown of the hammer face made it impossible to keep it vertically aligned. A socket fitted over the hammer didn't help. So I ended up holding it by hand and wacking the hammer face with another hammer. Success! It wasn't as pretty as it might have been, but it's tight and secure. |
|||||||||
|
Eric Member
|
Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere, but I'm planning on replacing the rear shocks and springs. My plan was to use jack stands on the small plate just forward of where the lower control arms attach to the body. Is this appropriate? Also, do I need a spring compressor, or will the spring already be unloaded adequately to remove? |
|||||||||
|
Jim Picot Member
|
Eric, raise the car on a jack (via the back axle is good) and put jackstands under the body on the chassis rails - as far back as you can get them. I think this is where you are referring - just forward of the lower suspension arm mount brackets. The dampers should be straightforward to remove (notwithstanding rusted nuts etc!). To remove the springs, you won't need a spring compressor - use the jack under the axle to compress the springs. Remove the lower spring mounting nuts, then lower the jack to take all compression off the spring, and the spring is clear of the suspension arm. Then the top nuts should be easy to remove and the springs will just come out. |
|||||||||
|
Eric Member
|
Jim..thanks for the info. So what is the issue with the bushing on the spring referred to in earlier posts? |
|||||||||
|
Jim Picot Member
|
When you get the springs out, you'll see the problem. The top of the spring is clamped between a spring seat and a spring retainer, with an insulating rubber in between. The assembly is held together by this bush, which is peened over to hold it all together. You cannot re-use the bush, it must be destroyed to take it apart - you can drill it out with a 1/2" drill. You can get the bushes very cheaply from Delta Motorsports (it's just piece of rod machined to the required size & shape), but you will need to follow the instructions above to peen it over to hold everything together. Depending on their condition, you may be able to re-use the seat and retainer, but you can get them new. However, the insulating rubber is not available. Mine was actually in excellent condition, despite being 40 years old! I suspect that their location away from damaging sun and petrol products means they don't deteriorate. |
|||||||||
|
Eric Member
|
Jim- thanks for the explanation. It makes sense now. I'll order some bushings from Delta. Did you use the heavy duty performance springs or the original spec when you did your replacement? |
|||||||||
|
Jim Picot Member
|
I got the springs from the UK - Martin Robey, I think. They are standard spec. |
|||||||||
|
Eric Member
|
I see. Delta offers a "heavy duty" spring. Not sure if this offers any advantage. |
|||||||||
|
Jim Picot Member
|
Depends on what you intend to use the car for. For normal road use, personally I'd stay with the standard springs. |
|||||||||
|
Eric Member
|
Hey Jim ..just a update. Rear shocks went in as easy as could be. The old ones were totally shot. The car still has a lean to the left, however, as it did before the shock replacement. Should I try replacing the rear springs? How difficult is replacing the front shocks and springs? The shop manual recommends a spring compressor for the front . Thanks Eric |
|||||||||
|
Jim Picot Member
|
Hi Eric, the shocks won't determine the ride height, only the springs and whatever packing they have. The condition of your bushes may also affect it they are badly deteriorated on one side. If the rear springs are original, then they may well have sagged, not necessarily to the same degree if the car has been used driver only for much of its life. Replacing the rear springs is pretty easy, provided the seats and retainers are in good nick. You will need to drill out and replace that bush we talked about. Front shocks aren't much harder than the rears, but the springs are a little more involved. Yes, you will need a spring compressor - I made do with a set I bought years ago. I'd recommend you get yourself a workshop manual, not just the Jensen manual (if you can find one), but a Vauxhall Viva HB manual - exactly the same suspension, and more user-friendly instructions than the Jensen one. You can pick one up pretty cheaply on ebay in the UK. Have you checked the condition of the bushes front and back, and also the ball joints at the front? I ended up doing EVERYTHING on mine, everything is brand new. But it still leans on the drivers (right hand) side. I may need to slacken and re-torque the main wishbone bolts. Failing that, the new springs might not be that well matched, so might need to be swapped around. Better to have the passenger side a bit low so the drivers weight evens things out. |
|||||||||
|
Eric Member
|
Hi Jim. On the rear, all the bushings looked okay from the outside. With the shocks off, the springs seemed very weak, so replacing these seems entirely reasonable--next weekends project! Will tackle front suspension next..looks like both the KYB and Monroe shocks have been used successfully up front. Thanks for the help!! |
|||||||||
|
Jensen Healey Super Moderator 
|
The "lean" is usually worn or incorrectly installed rear bushings. The car must be lowered onto ramps or blocks before the trailing arm bushings are tightened. KYB gas shocks will raise the front of the car about 1/2 inch. The gas exerts near 40lbs of lift each. I have non-gas Konis on the front and measured the difference from the KYB Gas-a-Just monotube shocks. I have not measured the rear. Kurt |
|||||||||
|
Eric Member
|
Kurt, so the lower arms must be bearing the weight of the car before tightening bushings? What's the overall process for upper and lower bushes? Can they be replaced with the car on jackstands with final tightening done after lowering the car onto ramps, or is there a better way? |
|||||||||
|
Art DeKneef Member
|
You can replace the bushings with the car on jack stands. Brace it high enough so you can slide underneath to work. A jack stand under the axle is good. Keep in mind the long arms will be under some downward pressure. So before you remove the bolts you want to support the front of the arm before taking the bolt out completely. Also, depending on age and condition the bolts might be a little rusted and need some persuasion getting them out. If the bushings are original or bad, replace all of the rear bushings. Not a hard job, just time consuming. There have been other posts about getting the steel tubes out of the bushings and arms. Yes, the car must have it's weight bearing down on the suspension when you do the final tightening. What I did was put the car on car ramps at all 4 wheels. This let me slide underneath on a creeper making it easy to underneath plus gave me the added benefit of having the car's suspension under weight when it came time for the final tightening. You might want to check and see if you have a suspension shop nearby that can make springs. They should be able to test your springs and see how they are. Somewhere around here and in my notes somewhere I have results for a bunch of springs I had tested some time ago. I'll have to look it up. And the rear suspension will be a piece of cake compared to doing the front suspension. Art |
|||||||||
|
Eric Member
|
So have rear suspension disassembled. Lower control arm bushings came out with hacksaw technique described earlier. Do I use the same method to remove the bushing at the differential end of the UPPER control arm? Not sure I can get a drill up in that tight space. Anybody try a bushing puller? |
|||||||||
|
stevegarnjobst Member 
|
Question - which Vauxhall Viva HB manual would you recommend? There are a number of options available cheaply through Amazon. I'm reluctant to order the Haynes manual, as the item displays a photo of a Datsun Bluebird manual on both the US and UK Amazon sites: http://www.amazon.com/Vauxhall-Viva-Owners-Workshop-Manual/dp/0900550260 Other options on Amazon: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Vauxhall-No-100-Olyslager-Motor-Manuals/dp/0171601009/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1449059590&sr=8-1&keywords=vauxhall+viva+hb+manual http://www.amazon.co.uk/Vauxhall-1966-70-Autobook-autobook-workshop/dp/0851471919/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1449059590&sr=8-5&keywords=vauxhall+viva+hb+manual This one seemed interesting, since all I really care about is the suspension & steering: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Suspension-Steering-Vauxhall-Service-Training/dp/B00E9BCOYG/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&qid=1449059590&sr=8-11&keywords=vauxhall+viva+hb+manual Recommendations on which one to get? Thanks! -Steve |
|||||||||
|
Brett Gibson JH5 20497 Member
|
I have the Haynes book and it has a lot of good info in it, make speak for the others. I have to say the one I have does not have a picture of a Datsun on the cover ??? |
|||||||||
|
stevegarnjobst Member
|
Brett Gibson JH5 20497 wrote:I have the Haynes book and it has a lot of good info in it, make speak for the others. I have to say the one I have does not have a picture of a Datsun on the cover ??? That's what worries me. Maybe there's an error in Amazon's ISBN database? I'll lob a question to on of the vendors to have them verify |
|||||||||
|
stevegarnjobst Member
|
This seems like a good thread to ask a question I have about the rear spring assemblies. I'm planning to convert from the stock springs to higher rate 2.5" coil springs. I'll also be installing some adjustable spring perches to permit ride height adjustment. My question is this: the J-H uses coil spring retainers both top & bottom on the stock springs. Is it possible to run without retainers on the springs, as is common practice on many vehicles? Or, is there sufficient droop in the J-H suspension to require retainers to keep the springs in place and limit droop? I know others have converted to standard coil springs - how did you address this issue? Does adding a rear swaybar reduce the need for spring retainers by limiting droop? Thanks! -Steve p.s. Here's a photo of the spring perches I'm using. They're for a VW Golf, and bolt right onto the J-H rear lower arms.  Last edited on 12-02-2015 01:35 pm by stevegarnjobst |
|||||||||
|
Brett Gibson JH5 20497 Member
|
I'm not quite getting what you are trying to describe, I do have a few photo's of the rear springs in and out along with the hardware, plus a scan of the Haynes book for that page, if that interests you send me a PM with your e-mail. Last edited on 12-02-2015 03:37 pm by Brett Gibson JH5 20497 |
|||||||||
|
answerman Member
|
Watching this thread with interest since I am pulling Ms. J's front suspension at a minimum within the next few weeks. I did an ISBN check and both the numbers at the Amazon link do in fact list the book as the Haynes Vauxhall Viva HB book, so I took the $6 plunge and ordered a used copy. I'll let you know if it's the right book when it gets here (otherwise I guess I'll be trolling the Datsun forums to unload it). |
|||||||||
|
stevegarnjobst Member
|
Brett Gibson JH5 20497 wrote:I'm not quite getting what you are trying to describe, I do have a few photo's of the rear springs in and out along with the hardware, plus a scan of the Haynes book for that page, if that interests you send me a PM with your e-mail. So, the springs in the J-H have a retainer that clamps the end of the spring to the lower trailing arm and the chassis. In a number of modern vehicles, the rear springs are simply sitting loose in the spring seats. My question is whether J-H secured the springs specifically to utilize the springs as suspension travel limiters. The suspension doesn't include limiting straps or other locating arms that limit travel. So, is it safe to run the springs "loose" without fear they'll become dislodged if one side of the rear suspension droops too far? Does a swaybar help the situation by limiting droop? |
|||||||||
|
Jim Picot Member
|
Steve, re the manuals, I would think any Vauxhall Viva HB or even HC manual (as far as I can tell) would be fine - I have both and the suspension for both models is the same for the JH. Note, the rear axle is HC, so it might be worth having that one. I have both Haynes manuals. The Vauxhall training manual sounds interesting - it might have a bit more information than the standard Haynes manual. I would guess the picture of the Datsun manual is simply an error, or they just used a stock pic to illustrate it. I would think if they sent you a Datsun manual they should replace it FOC! I wouldn't have thought you could remove the spring retainers without causing problems - they locate the springs on the lower arms and would need something to secure them. Not sure what you mean by "I know others have converted to standard coil springs" - the JH springs are standard coil springs? But I'm intrigued by your idea of using adjustable spring perches if they effectively replace the retainers. I still have my problem with the uneven ride height on mine (30 mm low on drivers side at front, about 20 mm at the back), despite putting in all-new everything. How would you propose to use them - you might need to fabricate some kind of locator to keep the spring correctly positioned? |
|||||||||
|
stevegarnjobst Member
|
Jim Picot wrote:...I wouldn't have thought you could remove the spring retainers without causing problems - they locate the springs on the lower arms and would need something to secure them. Not sure what you mean by "I know others have converted to standard coil springs" - the JH springs are standard coil springs? But I'm intrigued by your idea of using adjustable spring perches if they effectively replace the retainers. I still have my problem with the uneven ride height on mine (30 mm low on drivers side at front, about 20 mm at the back), despite putting in all-new everything. If you look at the photo of the adjuster I posted, that acts as a spring locator, as the spring sits around the tube. At the other end, I was planning to use a commonly available spring seat, which includes a central locating tube. There are a number of cars that use such spring seats to locate the springs with no clamps like those used on the J-H. When I say "standard" spring, I'm referring to 2.25" or 2.5" racing springs, as comminly used on coilover systems. They're inexpensive and available in a wide range of spring rates and lengths. I've read at least 2 or three threads where other J-H owners have converted their rear springs in a similar fashion. I'm just trying to determine whether I should worry about securing the springs or if the adjuster/locator will be sufficient. |
|||||||||
|
answerman Member
|
Just a follow up. I did receive the Haynes Vauxhall Viva HB manual I ordered from Amazon last week, and contrary to the cover picture of a Datsun manual, it is definitely the Vauxhall manual. Just in case anyone was worried about it. |
|||||||||
|
Jim Picot Member
|
Oh, good. I was worried you might end up making some horrible Jensen-Datsub hybrid! |
|||||||||
|
answerman Member
|
laughs... that would be an interesting Frankenhealey! No, it's definitely the right manual. If anyone else wants to order it from the Amazon link above, you can rest assured you'll get the right one. |
|||||||||
|
little red Member
|
Just changed the rear shocks and springs on little red. Got them from Greg. They look great but as everyone said took a while to peen the bush but came out ok with a little force. If anyone gets the bilstein shocks for the rear look for the hex key opening on the top of the shaft where the lock nut goes. Took me a while to figure out how to hold the shaft so it would not turn while tightening. The hex key works better than the old style of a square top for vice grip. Off I go for a test ride. Tomorrow I start the front. |
|||||||||
|
little red Member
|
Just back from a 50 mile run. It was like riding on a firm marshmallow cloud. What a difference. Thank you Greg. Can't wait to start the front tomorrow morning. |
|||||||||
|
Screenplay Member
|
I just received new rear springs for 18341 and am installing them. I have a question about the steel peened bushing/retainer that holds the mounts and rubber insulator together at the top of these springs. Is it really necessary? The bolt that fastens the spring to the underbody pulls it all together upon tightening, so what is the purpose of the peened bush? I've done this before but it was a real pain and took a long time. I'm wondering if perhaps this peened bush was originally there to facilitate assembly line production. I'd like to do it correctly and will take the time to do it right, but I have to wonder about its necessity. Clinton |
|||||||||
|
little red Member
|
Peening the bush was pretty easy. I used two needle nose vice grips to hold the upper and lower brackets with the rubber in the middle. One at 12 o'clock and one at 6. With everything held tight and propped against a solid metal rod it was easy to use the ball end of the ball peen hammer against the bush and smack it hard two to three times with a five pound hammer. It came out good. Took about five minutes to set it all up and peen the bush. Don't know if it is necessary but it does hold everything in place for installation. I just did not want any rear end squeaks when the installation was finished. |
|||||||||