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sjensen24 Member
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I paid someone to install a Crane XR3000 electronic ignition in my car and have been having problems ever since. The work was done by a non english car mechanic who is no longer available. I set the timing at 12 btdc. The car is very low on power at high speeds or climbing hills. I have not checked to see if the timing advances with rpm but plan to do that this weekend. I have read Greg's tech note suggesting that most Crane ignitions are installed wrong. What would be the obvious mistakes a mechanic would make? I notice that the instructions say I must bypass any ballast resistors. I do not know if that was done or if it would explain the problem. Any help would be most welcome. |
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JHRV8 Member
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You have to follow the entire installation through the wiring to see if done correctly....Find a JHPS member in your area to help you look; sounds like it needs to be re-done.....sorry, JHRV8. Last edited on 04-08-2009 01:02 am by JHRV8 |
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Jensen Healey Super Moderator 
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There are two "bumps" on the inside of some aftermarket distributor caps that interfered with the Crane that was on my car. I removed the Crane and installed Pertronix, no worries! Kurt |
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Dan (Florida) Member
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Even though Crane Cams is no longer in business, their website is still up and working and has all of the instructions and diagrams. I have a xr750 that came with the car that works ok but much better with a msd unit. They had the instructions for installing both. The xr750 didn't make the car start or run much better than what I imagine the points would do , but I don't think the car would start at all if wired wrong. You are going to have to experiment with plug gaps and timing. Did the mechanic remove the vacuum advance mechanism and block the vacuum ports as is needed? I would first visit the crane cams site/technical/ignitions and read up on the unit. It sounds like something else may be wrong. keep us posted Dan |
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sjensen24 Member
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thanks for the response. I did buy the unit from Delta for the JH. Seems like they would know if it was not appropriate. I am able to adjust the timing manually. Do you think the interference you describe would prevent that? |
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sjensen24 Member
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I will be working on the car this weekend; checking if the timing advances. I can verify the vacuum ports were blocked. I did find the crane instructions. thanks, all. |
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Jensenman Member
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The #1 problem is the pickup is not properly 'phased'. It's not difficult, just a little tedious. 'Phasing' means that the rotor points to the contact in the cap at the same time that the shutter wheel slit is centered in the pickup. The pickup has to be slid on the mounting bracket to set this and it might take a few tries to get it right. If this is not done the ignition timing will be impossible to set properly. |
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sjensen24 Member
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Thanks. It sounds like it would be easy for an installer to miss that. I am planning to remove the distributor for these investigations as it is very hard to work on in the car. Is the phasing a visual exercise (just line things up by sight) or is it more technical. Additional info that was not in my original post. In addition to being low on power at higher rpms, the exhaust system got seriously hot after about 30 minutes of driving. It burned a hole in my muffler. My best guess is that the timing is not advancing. I intend to test that this weekend. |
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Jensen Healey Super Moderator
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To set the phasing I used an old cap and drilled holes on either side of the #1 tower. Then used a timing light to look at the rotor while it operates. I had to redrill my Pertronix unit so it could be adjusted enough. With the MSD unit phasing problems quickly lead to tracking in the cap and burned through rotors. Kurt |
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Jensenman Member
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On mine, I painted a line on the dizzy body with White Out which lined up with the #1 wire tower on the cap. I then painted a small white line on the shutter wheel in line with the slit (makes it much easier to see), aligned the rotor with the mark on the body and then aligned the center of the pickup with the mark on the shutter wheel. Last edited on 04-10-2009 12:19 pm by Jensenman |
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Jensenman Member
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If the exhaust got that hot, it tells me the timing was seriously retarded. Assuming the engine still runs smoothly, I'd say the powerplant will be all right. Generally speaking, a lot of timing advance will cause spark knock and detonation which will punch holes in pistons and melt stuff but retarded doesn't usually cause damage unless it's run that way for a LONG time. It can also make the engine overheat big time, you didn't mention that so my gut feeling is the engine is OK. |
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sjensen24 Member
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I spent some time this weekend working on the car. The symptoms again are low power at high rpm and an overheated exhaust. This is what I have found so far. 1. The install instructions for the Crane ignition say that all ballast resistors must be removed from the circuit. There is what looks like a ceramic resistor still wired. When I pull one of the wires, the car dies. Are there any risks to bypassing this resistor with a jumper wire? 2. The timing does not increase with engine speed. It is set at about 12 degrees BTDC at 1000 rpm. It does not change when I rev the engine. 3. The vacuum advance is still on the distributor, but it is not connected to the manifold and the line was not blocked off, either at the manifold or the distributor. Is it necessary to have the vacuum connected or can I just block these ports? Is it possible that the resistor is responsible for the failure to advance or is it likely that there is some inference inside the distributor that prevents it from advancing? I believe that cap to be original. This is a little frustrating, but I am learning a lot. |
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sjensen24 Member
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The engine seems to be fine. I started it and it ran well at twenty five degrees btdc, but when I dialed it back to 12 it ran a bit rough. Last edited on 04-13-2009 02:52 pm by sjensen24 |
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Judson Manning Member 
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What you've got is a band-aid solution. While it may be running, it's not running well and it's certainly not taking advantage of the Crane's higher output. The guy you want to contact is Jeff Schlemmer at Advanced Distributors jeff@advanceddistributors.com in Shakopee, MN 612-804-5543. Jeff rebuilt my 45DM and has done work for several other club members. He's the kind of guy who can do just about anything with the Lucas distributors and he is a very 'can do' person. I'd give him a call and tell him your story. |
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Jensen Healey Super Moderator
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Jeff also sells high quality rotors. |
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Jensenman Member
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There's two types of advance: vacuum and mechanical. The vacuum capsule is one of two types: it either advances the ignition timing when you open the throttle, this type works off of 'ported' vacuum meaning there's no vacuum applied at idle but as you open the throttle the advance unit now gets vacuum. This type will have a hose going to the carburetor in the area of the throttle plate. Or there's the 'retard' type, this one has vacuum at idle and retards the ignition timing. When the throttle is opened, the vacuum drops and a spring inside the unit now advances the ignition timing. This type will have the hose connected directly to the intake manifold. Either one can be bypassed but now you have to set your ignition timing differently: the engine has to be run at ~2500 RPM and the ignition timing set at the full advance point. I'd have to go back and look at my manual, but I believe that's 32 deg BTDC. This means the ignition timing at idle will be advanced compared to the stock setting. The mechanical advance is a set of weights and springs inside the distributor, under the points plate. It looks like this: http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/supercharged111/Crown%20Vic/DistributorMechanicalAdvance.jpg Here's how to install the distributor holddown to make life a lot easier. I learned this from messing with MGBs which have the dizzy clamp in a terrible spot (although nowhere near as bad as the J-H's): while you have the dizzy out, install the clamp on the dizzy and experiment with the clamp bolt torque until you can turn the distributor in the clamp with medium effort. It has to be tight enough that the dizzy can't be easily removed from the clamp, yet it can be rotated; as noted this takes some experimenting. Once it's back in the engine use the stud/nut which points toward the rear of the engine to hold the dizzy in place. Now you can turn the dizzy to set the ignition timing without having to loosen/tighten the bolt. In the future if you have to remove the dizzy, take the nut off of the stud and leave the clamp attached to the dizzy. |
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Jensen Healey Super Moderator
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Block the vacuum tap at the manofold. That's a vacuum leak and the car will never run right. If your advance doesn't change with rpm then the mechanical advance is stuck. Lubricate and move by hand before rechecking. If this is not working, do not run the car. Send it to Jeff and get it fixed! Good Luck, Kurt |
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Jensenman Member
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BTW, about the resistor: the control box should have +12V at all times. The ignition coil will vary; some require +6 volts regardless of the voltage supplied to the control box meaning the resistor is needed for the coil only. Some require +12V at all times, meaning no resistor. I'm running a 'Lucas Sports' coil with my Crane and it requires a resistor. |
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sjensen24 Member
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Progress report. I spent some time on the car this weekend. I restored the vacuum connection. The engine seems to run smoother at idle and I now read advance of about 8 degrees at 2000 rpm. At 3000 rpms the engine starts to miss and the marks fade out, creating the impression that the advance has stopped. I am beginning to wonder if my whole problem is that ballast resistor. |
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Jensen Healey Super Moderator
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No, no, no. DISCONNECT THE VACUUM!!!!!! Cap it at the manifold. You can't check the timing with the vacuum retard system connected. Your timing is way off. by 2000 rpm you should read around 20 degrees BTDC. |
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sjensen24 Member
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Got it. I do have some basic questions, however. I have gotten advice of all different types on the vacuum advance. Some sources indicate that it get abandoned all together and some sources say that I need it at idle. Does it depend on other issues? |
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sjensen24 Member
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My total advance is about 17 to 18 degrees at 2000 to 2500 rpm. 10 degrees at idle and then another 8 when I boost the rpms. This is with the vacuum attached. Does this mean it would be at 25 if my vacuum was not attached? |
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Jensenman Member
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That will depend on the type of vacuum capsule you have. An 'advance' type has no vacuum at idle, this is the type where the vacuum tap is on the carburetor. The vacuum tap on the carb will have no vacuum until the throttle is opened (this is called 'ported' vacuum). A 'retard' type has vacuum all the time, this type will conect directly to the intake manifold. Here's how to check for the type you have, you will need a handheld vacuum pump, a helper and a timing light. Connect the vacuum pump to the advance unit, then start the engine and aim the timing light at the marks. Now have the helper work the vacuum pump. The engine turns clockwise; if the mark moves counterclockwise with vacuum, then it's an advance type which needs to be connected to ported vacuum. If the mark moves clockwise, it's a retard type and needs to be connected to manifold vacuum. The timing is set with the vacuum disconnected on the advance type, the retard type is left connected. Either way, you should start out with ~10 degrees initial advance and by 3000 RPM it should be in the (IIRC) 30 degree range. The engine running rough and the timing light 'fading' as the engine speed increases indicates to me a possible problem in the ignition module. I would want to make real sure that the optical pickup is squeaky clean where the little LED and receiver are. Don't use harsh solvents like carb or brake cleaner, a soft clean rag and a little glass cleaner should be sufficient. EDIT: I found this page with XR3000 installation information. It has a link to a PDF of Crane's instruction sheet. http://www.bmw2002faq.com/content/view/70/32/ Last edited on 04-27-2009 09:34 pm by Jensenman |
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Jensen Healey Super Moderator
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Let's assume you have a stock Jensen Healey distributor which is vacuum retard. My total advance is about 17 to 18 degrees at 2000 to 2500 rpm. 10 degrees at idle and then another 8 when I boost the rpms. This is with the vacuum attached. Does this mean it would be at 25 if my vacuum was not attached? No, your vacuum retard is retarding the timing 8 degrees less when there is less vacuum, (remember high vacuum is when the butterflys are closed, like at idle and when decelerating). Of course, less retard is just the same as more advance. Sounds like the mechanical advance is frozen. If your static timing is set to 10 degrees the vacuum retard would retard it to 2 degrees at idle. I'll bet your static timing is set to 18 degrees. You need to remove the distributor and send it to Jeff at Advanced Ignition. Move the engine to top dead center and note that the rotor points towards the #1 spark plug wire before removing. That way you can put it back in the same way when you get it back from Jeff. I also recommend throwing the Crane XL Fireball 500 gee whiz POS in the trash and having Jeff install a Pertronix unit which he can setup correctly for you. And disconnect the vacuum retard, cap the manifold, and never, ever, hook it up again! Nobody has used one since 1975. My car runs great without it. Kurt |
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sjensen24 Member
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Progress report: I attached a jumper wire to bypass the external ballast resistor. HUGE IMPROVEMENT!! Prior to doing this, the car would start missing badly at 3000 rpms. Immediately after attaching the bypass, I revved to 7000 without a hiccup. However, still no advance on the timing with engine speed. I was dreading getting into the distributor, but there was no choice. I pulled it out and very carefully worked my way into it. Is it a bad thing if it is filthy inside? Much oil and gunk to clean out. I finally made my way down to the weights. They did seem to be stuck. I worked them loose and put everything back together. Bad news is that I still get no advance. I guess the next step is the expert at Advanced Distributor. I set the timing to about 20 degrees btdc and restored the vacuum retard, which takes me down to about 12 at 1000 rpm. The car runs better than it has in a long time and well enough to drive it back home where I can get it into the shop. Thanks to everyone for all of the valuable advice. |
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sjensen24 Member
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I finally got my car home and tried to call Advanced Distributors. We traded emails earlier and he was very helpful. Now, however, the phone number does not work and directory assistance has no listing. Do you know if he is out of business? |
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dwalls1 Member
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He's certainly not out of business. He just rebuilt my spare distributor in one day. I dealt purely by e-mail and Jeff was right on top of things all the while. Go to his site to download a form to send with your distributor. By passing the ballast resistor should give better spark, but shorten the life of the coil. It is by passed during starting any way as I understand it. |
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sjensen24 Member
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I did get an email back from Jeff and spoke with him today. Turns out his phone gives an odd message if he is on the phone at the same time voice mail is taking a message and he is also unlisted. Thanks. |
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