| Moderated by: Greg Fletcher | ||
| Author | Post | |||||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|
jgreen Member
|
HI Everyone, I have some potentially exciting news for stromberg equipped 907's. I live about 20 miles form the developers house. It seems promising as he has developed ( in his own machine shop with all the computer driven machines) a kit using the proven delco fuel injection system in all gm cars. They are in current operation with tr-6's ( 6 cylinder) and mg ( single card). He is currently developing a kit for 4 cylinder dual carbs. ( 175 srombergs) I should be ready in the spring. If you are worried aout the stock look........ don't worry ....... the system fits inside the strombergs and uses all the original filters/manifolds/ etc. You really can't see it. Everyone would think you are carb equipped. I have a Jensen GT w/ strombergs and he has offered to install the first one as soon as my gt is up and running. The only modificationmust be done to the fuel tank. It needs a return line fitting for the extra fuel to return to the tank. The kits come with everything except fuel line, pretty amazing...... even a check engine light. If you are interested, please email me and I will give you details and try to answer as many questions as possible. The developer i think is curious tro know how much interest is out there for a kit for the Jensen Healey like this. Regards John Everyone knows the convience of fuel injection so I won't so into it here. |
|||||||||
|
subwoofer Member
|
Does the Delco system handle the problem of TBI and siamese headers? I read about someone trying to get a MegaSquirt system tuned in for a Mini with a siamese intake header, and he was having all sort of problems, where on cylinder would go dead lean while the other was way rich. Airflow in those throttle bodies is not evenly distributed over two revolutions. -- Joachim |
|||||||||
|
Jensen Healey Super Moderator 
|
Is this the Patton kit with JH maps? http://www.pattonmachine.com/ |
|||||||||
|
subwoofer Member
|
It does sound like it. For those interested, there is an explanation of the siamese problem here: http://www.starchak.ca/efi/siamese.htm Edit: There may be a difference between a Mini head and the Stromberg manifold, but I think you still get the same problem. Knowing which tube the charge lands in is a bit of a guess, and probably not made easier by the propagation time from the valve to the throttle body, if fuel is delivered into the manifold between the suction pulses, it will always end in the inner cylinders. On the TR6, you don't have the same problem, since there is always 240º between the suction pulses (given 153624 firing order, which I believe it has). I just get the feeling that this is a lot more difficult than it looks at first glance. -- Joachim Last edited on 11-30-2008 05:46 pm by subwoofer |
|||||||||
|
jgreen Member
|
Yes, it is the patton kit. You are proabaly right, it could be lots of problems if this issue isn't solved. I will talk to him next week and see it he is aware of it. There looks like a lot of promise if this does work well. I am not sure how much of a problem the lotus setup will be however. FWIW, there is a detailed installation with photos on the site. He installs it on the tr-6. It's pretty much bolt on with some fine machining added in to fit the strombergs... very well done. |
|||||||||
|
pc Member
|
The “siamesed port problem” pops up when trying to use timed, multi-port injection on cylinder heads with siamesed intake ports (which, by definition, aren’t multi-ports). The 907 has individual intake ports so you can use timed multi-port injection. Later generation Lotus engines do just that. But all that’s academic since the Patton Machine system is a throttle body injection setup, a.k.a. an electronic carburetor style of system. As long as the injector provides a uniform “fog” to the throat of the throttle body and the intake manifold plenum the cylinder balance should be the same as with carbs.  In addition to the return line and you might need to install a larger supply line too. I’m not sure if the stock line can handle the higher flow. You’ll also need to find a place to mount the ECU, run the harnessing, install the high pressure/flow pump, etc, etc. PC. Last edited on 12-03-2008 10:15 pm by pc |
|||||||||
|
subwoofer Member
|
pc wrote:
I dare to disagree that it should be the same as with a carb, and will claim that it has all the same problems as the BMC/Rover heads, compounded by the long throat, but I will admit that it is based on logic, not actual experiments. There is one significant difference between an actual carb and an "electronic carb" or TBI system, which is likely to bite in this particular configuration. In a carb, fuel delivery is a function of air mass flow, while in the case of EFI, fuel delivery is a function of time. The two are effectively one and the same if air flow is evenly/symmetrically distributed for the four-stroke cycle, but in the case of a dual carb 4 pot, it isn't. The distance from the intake ports to the TB only makes the problem more difficult to solve, because of the pressure propagation time lag, causing the ideal moment for injection to move around with respect to the crank angle, RPM dependent. Of course, I could be completely wrong, the length of the intake runners could smooth out the air flow speed fluctuations, causing the TBI system to behave closer to an actual carb, but the fact that intake runners are tuned to length for different RPM power peaks suggests to me that the air flow is not evened out, but pulsates. Just some late night speculation on my part, does anyone else have any opinions? -- Joachim |
|||||||||
|
pc Member
|
Fuel delivery in a carburetor is a function of air volume, i.e. Velocity x Area. In the case of a constant area carb (Weber, Delorto, Holley, Mikuni,…) fuel flow varies with velocity and the venturi cross section is fixed. In the case of a constant velocity carb (Zenith-Stromberg, SU, Hitachi,…) fuel flow varies with throat cross section and velocity is fixed. Because carburetors deliver based on volume, changes in air density (mostly due to altitude and ambient temperature) cause changes in A/F ratio. Factory tuned street engines are optimized for a “nominal” conditions so that they’ll operate reasonably at extremes. Highly tuned race engine carbs are re-jetted for running on tracks at different altitude from where they were originally dyno’ed/tested/tuned. EFI fuel delivery is a function of whatever the system designers builds it to be. basic electronic control schemes commonly used include: Alpha-N – fuel flow is based on rpm’s and throttle angle. This scheme suffers from the same sensitivity to changes in air density as carburetors but is simple and not sensitive to low manifold vacuum. It’s often used on motorcycles and racecars, which operate at wide open throttle (WOT) much of the time. Speed-Density - fuel flow is based on calculated mass air flow derived from rpm’s, measured MAP (manifold absolute pressure) and air temperature combined with a lookup table of estimates of combustion chamber volumetric efficiency. Mass Air Flow - fuel flow is based on measured mass air flow Those are the basic schemes but real systems can include additional sensor inputs to “tweak” the controls to more precisely approximate actual fuel demand. Real systems often combine modes. They may for example operate as speed-density at part throttle and/or midrange rpm’s then transition to alpha-N at WOT and high rpm’s. Typical throttle body injection systems are called “electronic carburetors” because they operate like carburetors, introducing fuel at the throttle plates, mixing the air and fuel in the intake manifold, fully wetting the intake tract and are not synchronized to valve operation/piston position. The intent is to have a uniformly mixed air/fuel charge in the intake tract that is available any time the intake valve opens, making fuel intake to the combustion chambers independent of valve timing. “Electronic carburetor” TBI systems can use any of the three control schemes. Typical EC/TBI systems do fire injectors on a timed cycle but not synchronized with valve opening. They’re timed to regulate fuel deliver. Since injector solenoids are simply either on or off they can’t regulate fuel flow in a variable manner. They are either not flowing anything or they’re flowing all they can. The control computer cycles them on and off so the total fuel flow is the average of the fuel delivered between the on and off periods. This is called “pulse width modulation.” The farther up the intake tract the fuel spray occurs the more time it has to vaporize and mix to a uniform air/fuel charge by the time it reaches the cylinder. If it is well mixed in the intake plenum it will be uniform in the intake runners to each cylinder. A timed, sequential port injection system can base flow volume on any of the schemes but synchronizes the “on” signal for the injectors with intake valve operation. These systems will have the injectors positioned very close to the intake port and include crank position sensing, not just speed sensing, inputs to the control computer. Since the Patton Machine installation notes mention neither MAF nor crank position sensors but does mention MAP and throttle position sensors it appears to be a speed-density/electronic carburetor system. pc. Last edited on 12-17-2008 06:04 am by pc |
|||||||||
|
Chris E Member
|
I've looked at doing this for a while, But the timing problems already mentioned coupled with the fact that GM TBI fires the injectors on every other ignition pulse seems to rule out a "dual sidedraft" solution. Although not that elegant in appearance, it should function well and it greatly simplifies sensor installation etc. see pic. I'll post more when I set up the surge tank & wiring, and give it a try. Chris Attachment: P1010057.jpg (Downloaded 848 times) |
|||||||||
|
Greg Fletcher Administrator 
|
Interesting, but I'm not loving the idea of a Stromberg fuel rejection system all that much. Strombergs are the first thing I want to remove on the 907. That Stromberg intake manifold is not the greatest piece of engineering to come out of the UK and getting access to the distributor is almost impossible. The Euro intake manifold is what the 907 was originally designed to use. You could put together a used Dellorto conversion for less than half what an injection system might cost. |
|||||||||
|
Chris E Member
|
What I'm looking for is a modest improvement in performance & driveability on a stock engine with significant gains in efficiency. Cost is also another factor. The GM 1227747 is one of the most common ecm's around (I paid less than $100 for the ecm and throttle body on ebay). I have less than $600 into everything required (a lot of homemade parts + ebay). |
|||||||||
|
Greg Fletcher Administrator
|
Sorry Chris, I was talking about the Patton kit for $1,500-$2,000. Yours does seem economical at that price. I'd like to hear how it turns out and how it feels on the road. |
|||||||||
|
subwoofer Member
|
Greg Fletcher wrote:Sorry Chris, I was talking about the Patton kit for $1,500-$2,000. Yours does seem economical at that price. I'd like to hear how it turns out and how it feels on the road. If the Patton kit is that expensive, I believe there are better ways to go about it, unless stock appearance is vital. A complete set of DCOE style throttle bodies and injectors (by KMS) costs $1000, 25% VAT inclusive, in Norway, add a MegaSquirt or a Haltech ECU, Euro intake manifold, and the rest of the needed parts scavenged from your local breaker's yard, you should come out with a better result for roughly the same price. Chris: please let us know how the TBI experiment works out, the idea may be worth working on, but I think it needs a bit in the looks department. Possibly something along the lines of the TR6 PI intake manifold, connected to a Euro mainfold? -- Joachim |
|||||||||
|
subwoofer Member
|
Finally had some time to cook up a reply to this: pc wrote: Fuel delivery in a carburetor is a function of air volume, i.e. Velocity x Area. In the case of a constant area carb (Weber, Delorto, Holley, Mikuni,…) fuel flow varies with velocity and the venturi cross section is fixed. In the case of a constant velocity carb (Zenith-Stromberg, SU, Hitachi,…) fuel flow varies with throat cross section and velocity is fixed. It is actually a function of air mass, since fluid density is a part of the Bernoulli equation (describing the pressure change for a given change in flow velocity), and the reduced pressure above the jet is the driving force of fuel delivery. The need for retuning due to altitude and atmospheric conditions is most likely caused by non-ideal behaviour of a carb and the combustion cycle. EFI fuel delivery is a function of whatever the system designers builds it to be. I am aware that there is a lot of different strategies used to calculate the pulse width for the injectors, but is does not change the fact that fuel delivery in any EFI system is strictly based on time. The controller delivers a certain amount of fuel at a specified time window, regardless of the momentaneous flow of air. Because of that, you can run into problems if air flow isn't evenly distributed over the full 720 degree cycle of the engine. If the air is flowing slowly past the injector at the time if fires, the charge is denser than if the air is moving at a higher speed. Since the two cylinders running off the same TB are spaced 180/540 degrees apart, not 360/360, it would be reasonable to expect that one cylinder will get a richer charge than the other, unless the volume of air in the common part of the manifold is much larger than the volume of the individual intake runners. Since the bifurcation is quite close to the carb/TB, I don't think that is the case for the Stromberg equipped 907. Just thinking out loud... -- Joachim |
|||||||||
|
Chris E Member
|
I originally had plans to build a couple of sidedraft throttle bodies which would look cool & bolt right on, However after looking into it a little more there are a couple of issues that are hard to get around. As Joachim mentioned the speed/density changes will make it difficult to get a consistant mixture with a constant stream of fuel. But it gets worse than that. GM TBI works with pulse width modulation with one pulse every OTHER ignition event. Therefore it is possible for most of the fuel to go to #2 while #1 gets almost none. see pic. For it to work, the injectors would need to be timed to the intake events. I believe that for a TBI to work correctly on a 4 cylinder both injectors need to fire into a single plenum. (this is what they're designed to do) otherwise we need to go to a port injection system. This is what prompted my quick & dirty design. That's my opinion anyway. I'll post further as my experiment gets further along. Chris Attachment: TBI Timing.jpg (Downloaded 54 times) |
|||||||||
|
subwoofer Member
|
You may consider getting a manifold, fuel rail and TBs from an S4 Esprit, I guess Mike at lotusbits.com could source a set. No S4 parts listed, but I guess he may be able to find some parts. That is a proper port injected setup, and fits the engine like a glove. Don't know about price, though. -- Joachim |
|||||||||
|
pc Member
|
When I was batting around the ideal of doing EFI on mine that’s the conclusion I came to. The more I thought about it the more it looked like getting used Esprit manifold/plenum/throttle body bits was going to be a lot easier than piecing together other stuff or fabricating custom parts and probably a lot cheaper. pc. |
|||||||||
|
Jensenman Member
|
I have Dellortos on my car. I still have the Stromberg intake sitting in my shop, every so often I look at it and wonder just how hard it would be to weld injector bungs into the tubes (the Dell intake already has them rough cast, BTW) and then add a couple of air doors in the stock Stromberg carb position. A Toyota MR2 etc of the '80's has a 'batch fire' ECM that seems like a perfect match for this type setup (or even use a Megasquirt) and a Geo Metro throttle body should be a close match to the Stromberg throttle diameter. Or even use a pair of motorcycle TB's. |
|||||||||
|
subwoofer Member
|
I have no idea if adding injectors to that manifold is feasible, but if you go that route, you could just rip out the innards of the Strombergs and use them for throttle bodies. -- Joachim |
|||||||||
|
Jensenman Member
|
The Strombergs could be easily replaced by a pair of 65mm throttle bodies which is a pretty common size. The stock 175CD is about 45mm so that would be a pretty big airflow boost. I'd rather do that than gut the Strombergs because that way I could easily install a throttle position sensor, idle air control, etc. For comparison, 2 45mm Dellortos have 9.868 sq inches of throttle opening. 2 65mm throttle bodies would have 10.286 sq inches of throttle opening. The TBs might even be a bit large since the 45mm figure on the Dells does not take into account the choke size. Weld in injector bungs are readily available: http://www.spectrum5racing.com/bungs.htm Hmmm. I'm starting to talk myself into it. :-D Once the rotary is installed in the other J-H and that's running, this could be my next project. Last edited on 01-29-2009 06:06 pm by Jensenman |
|||||||||
|
StevenD57 Member 
|
Here is a web page that shows a guy putting fuel injection on his Esprit using megasquirt and Ford EDIS coil pack distributor-less ignition. http://www.lotusespritworld.com/EGuides/EModifications/Giugiaro_Fuel_Injection.html There are some smallish photos as well. He uses a Dellorto manifold and locates the injectors in the cast in bosses that he has drilled to fit. The interesting thing he does is the addition of a swirl pot for the fuel supply and return system. Last edited on 04-16-2009 04:03 pm by StevenD57 |
|||||||||
|
subwoofer Member
|
Is the jury back yet? How was the results of the tests? Did tuning work out? -- Joachim |
|||||||||
|
StevenD57 Member
|
I have made quite a bit of progress on my EFI conversion for my JH. I have injector bungs welded into the ZS manifold and I have two single throat throttle bodies bolted in place of the ZS carbs. The diameter of the opening at the throttle disc on these throttle bodies measures about 2 1/8 inches. The ZS manifold has been opened up and port matched to this bigger throttle body size. My next project is to make up a fuel rail from pieces I scavenged off of a 1991 Saab 900 Turbo. Pictures of my progress so far can be seen here: http://s685.photobucket.com/albums/vv215/StevenD57/working%20on%20cars/JH%20EFI%20work/ I was over at Art DeKneef's place this afternoon and we have some concerns about the hood clearance where I have the injectors and fuel rail positioned. Comments, questions, or critical analysis of my efforts so far are welcome. Last edited on 07-11-2010 07:57 am by StevenD57 |
|||||||||
|
James Sohl Member
|
Well Done! Question: How were the holes formed? end mill? using what fixture(s)? in what machine? |
|||||||||
|
Ricardo_Julio Member
|
Steven, Those pictures are great!!! They will sure inspire some of us to do something similar; Just a couple of question, What brand throttle bodies did you use? Injectors? High pressure fuel pump? I have a ZS manifold and also a Weber manifold, I wonder which one will be better; Any and all help will be really appreciated . By the way, I like Bustelo or Pilon coffee more than La llave if you know what I mean, LOL. Ricardo |
|||||||||
|
StevenD57 Member
|
The throttle bodies are from a couple of Nissan Maxima cars in a local junkyard near me. I have a new-old stock fuel pump out of a Jaguar as well as some new-old Denso injectors. Once I get the car running on this system I will probably update to some modern multi-orifice injectors. My advice is to sell the Weber/Dellorto manifold to someone who wants to stick with carbs and do the EFI conversion with the ZS manifold. The single throat throttle bodies like I am using are real easy to find (read cheap) whereas throttle bodies to fit the twin throat Dellorto style manifold are very expensive. As to how the holes in the manifold were made for the fuel injector bungs, a friend did it on a milling machine while I was not there in person so I don't know how he did it exactly. |
|||||||||
|
dwalls1 Member
|
Looks real good! My daily driver is a late TR7 with EFI. I would love to have the same convenience, driveability, etc. etc. on my J-H. Your pictures inspire me and I await further updates on your project. My guess is, after looking squinty eyed at the pictures, that you should have enough clearance for the injector rail, as the choke cable sticks straight down from the top on the carbs and extends above them somewhat. Good Luck and Thank You for sharing. |
|||||||||
|
StevenD57 Member
|
So I was able to hookup with Dave Gunn who only lives a couple miles away from me and since he had his intake still off of his partially assembled motor, he was nice enough to let me come over and test fit my EFI altered intake setup on his car. It seems like my worry about the clearance for the fuel rail that sticks out above the injectors was not unfounded. We put the whole assembly on his car and sure enough the front tip of the fuel rail is probably going to foul the hood just barely to one side of the existing hump. I won't know for sure until I can really bolt it up to a car with the hood actually on the car but judging from the pictures and rough measurements we took on Dave's car I think I have a small problem. We layed a straight edge across the top of the fenders crossing the car where the front edge of the fuel rail sits and that front tip of the fuel rail was only about 1/32nd to 1/16th inch below the straight edge. If the existing bump on the hood was moved towards the center of the car by approx two inches I think I would be fine. Alternatively on my next intake I have modified I might be able to get the fabricator to lay the injector location down just a little bit. Anyway take a look at the photos I took of the whole manifold assembly bolted onto Dave's car: http://s685.photobucket.com/albums/vv215/StevenD57/working%20on%20cars/JH%20EFI%20work/ There is a total of ten new photos uploaded there. Comments, suggestions, critics, or what-not are welcome. -- Steven DuChene |
|||||||||
|
StevenD57 Member
|
I have been working on getting additional sensors mounted for my continued conversion to crank-fired ignition and eventually EFI. I now have the coolant temperature sensor mounted in-line in the hose under the intake manifold. Photos can be seen at: http://s685.photobucket.com/albums/vv215/StevenD57/working%20on%20cars/JH%20EFI%20work/IMG_3014.jpg http://s685.photobucket.com/albums/vv215/StevenD57/working%20on%20cars/JH%20EFI%20work/IMG_3018.jpg I am currently able to drive the car around on the crank-fired ignition system based around the Ford EDIS4 parts (VR sensor, 4 cylinder coil, and EDIS4 controller) and the Megasquirt ECU. I have a Wide-band O2 sensor plugged into a bung welded into the exhaust and wired into the Megasquirt system for data-logging. Last edited on 11-01-2010 06:06 am by StevenD57 |
|||||||||
|
StevenD57 Member
|
The fuel injected Jensen-Healey runs for the first time this evening. It has twin side draft throttle bodies and a rather crude throttle linkage at this point but it runs. I have to add an air temperature sensor, airbox & filter, idle air control and do a real fuel return rather than simply shoving a hose into the top of the filler opening but it does run. These jobs and lots of tuning still to go. Last edited on 01-13-2011 04:05 am by StevenD57 |
|||||||||
|
JodyKerr Member 
|
Steve, My phone passed away quietly on it's charger tonight at 6:30 pm. I won't be able to pop over tonight, but should be able to on Monday. I have family visiting over the weekend. |
|||||||||
|
superk83 Member
|
Woooohoooo! Congrats on getting her running! Any video? |
|||||||||
|
StevenD57 Member
|
Jody is supposed to get his butt over here with his fancy-dancy video camera and do "film at 11" stuff of the car running. I do have new photos posted at photobucket. See previous posts in this thread for the URL to the JH EFI work album. Attachment: IMG_3119sm2.jpg (Downloaded 20 times) Last edited on 01-13-2011 03:49 am by StevenD57 |
|||||||||
|
JodyKerr Member
|
I *think* I can come by tonight after work. |
|||||||||
|
StevenD57 Member
|
JodyKerr wrote: I *think* I can come by tonight after work. No Jody and no video as of yet. Sorry. Jody had a family emergency. BTW, I have the fuel return done. I added air horns to the front side of the throttle bodies and I got the air intake temperature sensor installed in one of the air horns. I also just finished making a pair of brackets to keep the fuel rail and injectors from popping off the intake. These secure to two flanges that are silver soldered to the fuel rail by Saab. Attachment: IMG_3118sm2.jpg (Downloaded 26 times) Last edited on 01-13-2011 03:49 am by StevenD57 |
|||||||||
|
superk83 Member
|
Haha! I recognize that fuel rail, is it from a 9000? Identical to the one on my SAAB...! I'd say a saab motor would look good under that hood, but it'd probably twist the frame...! |
|||||||||
|
StevenD57 Member
|
superk83 wrote: Haha! I recognize that fuel rail, is it from a 9000? Identical to the one on my SAAB...! I'd say a saab motor would look good under that hood, but it'd probably twist the frame...! No, I think it was from a 900. Does the 900 have the motor sitting longitudinal (front to back) whereas the 9000 is a transverse (side to side) engine? BTW, I think the 907 motor looks just fine under the hood. Last edited on 01-13-2011 06:12 am by StevenD57 |
|||||||||
|
superk83 Member
|
Oh, no question, the fuel injected 907 looks perfect there... The early 900's were longitudinal front drivers like the audi's and switched to transverse when gm took over. Correct that all 9000's were transverse... bullet proof motors, by the way! Congrats again on getting it running! |
|||||||||
|
StevenD57 Member
|
superk83 wrote: Oh, no question, the fuel injected 907 looks perfect there... OK, the cars I got the fuel rail and a lot of the plastic fuel line with the various banjo fittings had longitudinal mounted 16V motors. Last edited on 01-13-2011 07:28 am by StevenD57 |
|||||||||
|
Jensen Healey Super Moderator
|
I love it! A SAAB thread! Only the Swedes can make a British engine totally reliable. Over 200k on mine. The 900 used the TR7 motor mounted backwards! Sort of like the Esprit with the 907 pulleys running next to the firewall. Kurt |
|||||||||
|
superk83 Member
|
The motor in the 900 is a far cry from that humble TR7 beginning...lol! How many TR7's had the transmission in their oil pan? |
|||||||||
|
dwalls1 Member
|
Too many speed shifts, maybe? |
|||||||||
|
superk83 Member
|
I don't mean destroyed and in pieces, the transmission was literally the oil pan for the old 99's and early 900's... Attachment: 99motor.jpeg (Downloaded 213 times) |
|||||||||
|
superk83 Member
|
I just read back through that thread and realized Steve mentioned having access to the older saabs... Any chance you got access to an 8valve...? I wouldn't mind a set of shims if you run across one... Jody, I hope every thing's going ok... Last edited on 01-15-2011 04:09 am by superk83 |
|||||||||
|
StevenD57 Member
|
superk83 wrote: I just read back through that thread and realized Steve mentioned having access to the older saabs... Any chance you got access to an 8valve...? I wouldn't mind a set of shims if you run across one... Unfortunately the junkyard I go to cycles through the cars fairly quickly so if something is not producing immediate revenue (i.e. parts are selling) they pull it out and scrap it. So none of the 900 turbo cars I got stuff from so many months ago are in the yard any more. I will keep an eye out thought. What sort of operation is need to get to the shims? Last edited on 01-15-2011 02:58 pm by StevenD57 |
|||||||||
|
StevenD57 Member
|
I am always a little amused by the first few posts in this thread. The original poster jgreen started all of this in November of 2008 and said in the sub-title that a fuel injection kit would be "ready in the spring". He made two posts about it and then we NEVER heard a single thing back about any progress or what the eventual outcome was of his investigations into the Patton system. And now in January 2011, my fuel injection stuff is just running for the first time. Last edited on 01-15-2011 03:05 pm by StevenD57 |
|||||||||
|
superk83 Member
|
3 years.... wow... I'd assume on the 900 the process of getting to the shims would be similar to the 907, except the came aren't in removable carriers... |
|||||||||
|
JodyKerr Member
|
So are we going to see the FI system this afternoon? |
|||||||||
|
StevenD57 Member
|
JodyKerr wrote: So are we going to see the FI system this afternoon? If you get your butt over here and help me bleed the brakes. |
|||||||||
|
Art DeKneef Member
|
Cool. That means we might have 5 cars there. So far there are two JHs and two Interceptors. Woo Hoo! |
|||||||||
|
superk83 Member
|
Is Arizona the jh hot spot or what? I guess living in the rust belt is why i've never seen one of these in person... Don't forget the video camera, Jody... will this go on "they might be racing?" |
|||||||||
|
Sander Member 
|
woo hoo? i've got 4 jh's and 2 gt's at my "garage house"(yes, running). ever been to the red racer's house? he's got more than a dozen jh's in his backyard. hotlanta is jensen country! Last edited on 01-15-2011 10:16 pm by Sander |
|||||||||
|
superk83 Member
|
WHAT? There are that many in one location? No wonder I can't find parts, you guys are hoarding them... lol! Ok, ky and oh owners, it's time to speak up...! |
|||||||||
|
Sander Member
|
Need parts? When will you guys learn? Contact Bruce, the red racer, at: brucemadn@gmail.com Bruce even has a JH Huffaker Race Car! Tell him Sander sent you ... |
|||||||||
|
superk83 Member
|
I feel so ashamed for being such a noob...! Is Brucey on the forum? I'll shoot him an email as soon as I get a parts list together... |
|||||||||
|
StevenD57 Member
|
You are much better off to contact Delta Motorsports rather than Bruce. Delta is a real business. Bruce just does Jensen stuff part time when he feels like it. |
|||||||||
|
superk83 Member
|
How are their prices? They don't have a published price list.. |
|||||||||
|
StevenD57 Member
|
That is quite common with many places. JAE doesn't have a published catalog or price list. Same situation for Dave Bean. The issue is these places is that they have to order in larger quantities to get pricing breaks and by the time they run through that stock of parts, the prices from their suppliers have ALWAYS changed the next time around or the shipping costs has spiraled or both. Jim from Delta got a few 2.2L cranks in this past fall and he has sold out of them but he says he has found some more. He did says they next order will be slightly more expensive though because of the supplier and rising freight costs. I got one during one of his 10% off sales and think I got a very fair price on it. Last edited on 01-16-2011 05:37 pm by StevenD57 |
|||||||||
|
Sander Member
|
"You are much better off to contact Delta Motorsports rather than Bruce." Flame on Steve! So, now we all know you have personal issues with Bruce. Sure, go to the "real business" ... but what do you do when Delta doesn't have the part you're looking for? I buy from Jim at Delta too. I certainly believe we all need to support him and the few other real businesses out there. But Delta, and even JHPS have purchased items from Bruce over the years. I think we should share all other sources with newbies, even if they don't have a website, don't pick up the phone 9-5 or that they might take a few days to reply to e-mails. Bruce forgot more then you'll ever know about our cars and has helped 100's of us with his knowledge for over 30 years (without bastardizing engines with FI - slam). I'm sorry he decided to retire from JH's and enjoy other "hobbies". No, I don't want to marry or have sex with him ... I simply respect him for supporting the marque with decades of servicing JH's, giving technical advice and selling new and used parts. Several years ago Jim shared that Delta was for sale. Seriously Steve, you should buy Delta! |
|||||||||
|
superk83 Member
|
I hope that flame was in jest and not some self righteous attack against ingenuity and creativity... I love the fact that Steve is improving his vehicle and driving experience with non factory parts.. that's as lotus as it gets... let's not forget the origins, the heart and soul of these vehicles... As far as parts suppliers, I'm familiar with JHPS and delta, i've spoke with Pete and haven't emailed Bruce yet, still getting a list together... Driving your favorite car rain or shine, hot or cold, above or below sea level without hours of adjustment or not starting at all is the greatest thing in the world... Steve, thanks for being the innovator, for plowing ahead regardless of the nay sayers. Your article is how I found this forum... |
|||||||||
|
JodyKerr Member
|
Hey Guys, Keep it simple or STFU. I hear enough bickering at work, I don't need it in my car world. If I catch anyone bickering I will sneak over to their house and let all the factory Lucas smoke out of their wiring harness! :) Jody |
|||||||||
|
superk83 Member
|
Sorry jody... i'll keep out of it from here on out... Any progress with the efi? |
|||||||||
|
JodyKerr Member
|
Steve's got it running! He had it up at the pavillions car show over the weekend. I've got baby sitting duty at the moment while the wife's off running errands, but I was planning on finishing my video of the setup today. Jody |
|||||||||
|
superk83 Member
|
Awesome!!!! I'll be watching for updates all night!! (even though I'm working...) Get's pretty boring here later in the night... For anyone who's concerned Jody may have loosed your Lucas smoke, I know where you can get some more... http://www3.telus.net/bc_triumph_registry/smoke.htm Last edited on 01-17-2011 10:49 pm by superk83 |
|||||||||
|
Brett Gibson JH5 20497 Member
|
Bruce forgot more then you'll ever know about our cars and has helped 100's of us with his knowledge for over 30 years . I met Bruce at the Nashville nationals back in 04, he took a look at my car and commenced to tell me what was right and what was wrong about it. The guy is a gold mind of information-if you call him be prepared to spend a hour or so on the phone because the info just spills out of him and you come away a much wiser person for having dealt with him. I have bought parts from him, had parts rebuilt by him and he is a standup guy. Also Jim at Delta and Greg at JHPS are top notch guys as well and will go out of their way to help and make things happen. No one source can supply everything we need to keep these cars on the road today, but at least these three should be on everyone's call list. Sander, good to see you back on the boards Brett |
|||||||||
|
superk83 Member
|
Progress? Or should I take a look at They Might Be Racing? |
|||||||||
|
StevenD57 Member
|
Yes, Progress but still no Jody and his mythical camera. I think I may have made some progress today on the throttle linkage but it still needs a redesign. Once that is completely ironed out the car seems to be quite nice to drive even in it's untuned state. I was worried that the throttle bodies are too large but that does not seem to be a problem. I think I need to get a different wide band O2 sensor setup as the one I have seems to be not very reliable. Either that or I need a new sensor for the one I have. Update: I just ordered a new sensor only from Rockauto for $89 which I thought was a really good deal. Last edited on 01-22-2011 05:27 am by StevenD57 |
|||||||||
|
superk83 Member
|
$89 for an o2 sensor? Awesome! |
|||||||||
|
StevenD57 Member
|
superk83 wrote: $89 for an o2 sensor? Awesome! Just the sensor that screws into the pipe. Not for the whole Wide Band O2 system. The best price I have seen on that is around $170 to $180 for the Innovate LC-1 system with the gauge. |
|||||||||
|
JodyKerr Member
|
Video of Steve's car on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-2bkBlF3Lc |
|||||||||
|
superk83 Member
|
That is awesome! Way to go fellas.... keep it up! |
|||||||||
|
subwoofer Member
|
Looking good, fellas! I thought I made messy wiring, but you certainly beat me here. The air cleaners were very MacGyver, I hope you will make something better in due time. Keep at it! -- Joachim |
|||||||||
|
JodyKerr Member
|
To Steve's credit, he's responsible for all the boffin style engineering to make it work. I've just been along for the ride in terms of immoral support and video taping. Once the kinks are worked out of the existing system I'll take on the job of making pretty wiring harnesses and seeing what we can do to spiff it up. The current plan is to complete the bodging on Steve's car. Once it reaches a "production" caliber level we'll re-engineer the solution in to my spare blue Jensen Healey. In theory, it should actually make the blue car driveable again (providing I rebuild the suspension as well and don't mind riding in a flintsones-mobile with no interior and little floorboard. :) Jody |
|||||||||
|
CarlosThe Jacker Member
|
Sounds good, makes me even more interested in having a JH. What do you reckon the parts cost altogether? |
|||||||||
|
StevenD57 Member
|
I paid a good high quality fabricator to make the following parts: 1. VR sensor mount 2. trigger wheel adapter to secure same to front pulley 3. throttle body adapters 4. machine & weld the injector bungs into place in the ZS manifold So these were the most expensive bits of the conversion. All the hard parts except for the Megasquirt ECU, the little 1quart swirl tank, the coolant & air temp sensors and the four alloy injector bungs were used parts from the j-yard. This includes: 1. 96-99 Dodge Neon injectors (quantity 4) 2. Nissan Maxima 54mm throttle bodies (quantity 2) 3. Jaguar XJ6 plastic air horns (quantity 2) 4. Ford Escort coil pack 5. Ford Escort EDIS controller module 6. Lexus throttle position sensor 7. Ford Taurus VR sensor 8. Ford Taurus toothed wheel 9. Saab 900 fuel rail 10. Saab 900 fuel pressure regulator 11. Jaguar high pressure fuel pump So the ultimate cost of this depends on your ability to scrounge parts from the junk yard, score inexpensive Megasquirt units from EBay, and either do self fabrication or find a good but inexpensive fabricator. Last edited on 04-24-2011 08:47 pm by StevenD57 |
|||||||||
|
superk83 Member
|
Hey fellas, been a while... any more progress on this? |
|||||||||
|
StevenD57 Member
|
superk83 wrote: Hey fellas, been a while... any more progress on this? Nope, just driving and enjoying the car. I was driving it back and forth to work which is a 25 mile trip each way so it probably has a few hundred miles on it now with the EFI. I did put it on a chassis dyno to tune the very top end of the fuel map. No big issues. The biggest problem with the car now is not related to the fuel or ignition system. The transmission and rear end gearing makes the car a real bummer to drive on the highway for any distance so that is the next thing I will be looking into. I have a Ford T9 five speed transmission and I am trying to get an adapter made so it will bolt up to the engine. |
|||||||||
|
subwoofer Member
|
If I'm not much mistaken, most (all?) Ford Type 9s have a separate bellhousing. Will you make the adapter to adapt the JH 4-speed bellhousing to the T9 gearbox? If so, send a PayPal address and a price my way, because I would like one! I think it will be a lot easier to make an adapter between bellhousing and gearbox rather than between engine and bellhousing. First of all, the piece is a lot smaller, so it will be cheaper. Second, the only worries for integration into the car are gearbox mount, drive shaft, speedo drive and stick position. I think the latter should be fairly close, but there is more than one variant of the T9 too. There are hundreds of T9s within a 50 mile radius, Sierra and Scorpio were very popular cars here in the 80s. Loads of nice extras available too if the standard box is too weak for you, http://www.burtonpower.com has lots of different gear sets. -- Joachim |
|||||||||
|
StevenD57 Member
|
I do hope to get the Ford T9 to somehow bolt up to the back of the JH four speed bellhousing however because of the excessive length of the four speed bellhousing, it will probably require extensive machining to reduce the depth down to something that will work with the input shaft length on the T9 transmission. Once I get one done and have a semi-firm price, I will let others know about the status. The Ford T9 transmissions I have are out of the Merkur XR4Ti which is the only car that Ford brought into the US with the T9 transmission. It does have a rubber guibo coupling on the back of the trans rather than a normal U-joint flange or yoke. I will have to figure that part out too. I have measured the position of the stick shift in relation to a JH four speed and the later JH5 speed transmissions and the Ford T9 trans I have is pretty much dead on. The pilot bearing size verses the size of the front of the input shaft on the T9 is very close as well. Last edited on 04-24-2011 08:34 pm by StevenD57 |
|||||||||
|
StevenD57 Member
|
BTW, what ever happened to all of the people at the start of this thread who were so eager to discuss EFI on the JH? There were at least 6 - 8 people initially discussing the merits and problems with doing this and then as soon as I started making progress they all seem to have evaporated except for Joachim and superk83 (sorry I don't know your actual first name). What's up with that? Last edited on 04-24-2011 08:54 pm by StevenD57 |
|||||||||
|
subwoofer Member
|
There are at least two different input shaft lengths for the T9 box, I think the V6 input shaft is on the order of 3/4" longer than the I4 inputs shaft. I don't know how far we are off. -- Joachim |
|||||||||
|
subwoofer Member
|
StevenD57 wrote:BTW, what ever happened to all of the people at the start of this thread who were so eager to discuss EFI on the JH? There were at least 6 - 8 people initially discussing the merits and problems with doing this and then as soon as I started making progress they all seem to have evaporated except for Joachim and superk83 (sorry I don't know your actual first name). What's up with that? That's the internet for ya... I admit progress is sometimes slow on my part (Ms. Jensen is not my only car project, let alone project as such), but at least I think I head in the right direction. :-) -- Joachim |
|||||||||
|
StevenD57 Member
|
Just in case there is some interest here is a list of the approximate parts needed to do the EFI conversion on a Lotus 907 engine as fitted to a Jensen-Healey. I am looking into making a small batch of the altered Zenith-Stromberg intake manifolds that would include the fuel injector bungs welded into the manifold, the adapter plates for the pair of Nissan throttle bodies, the Nissan throttle bodies, the Nissan throttle position sensor, and possibly the fuel rail. For just the fuel injection setup then the following major parts would be required: high pressure fuel pump, either in tank or external in-tank: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220789062949 $50.00 external: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120727302910 $50.00 if external pump then external swirl pot or surge tank needed http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370490077702 $60.00 Dodge Neon fuel injectors Bosch 0-280-155-782 or Dodge 04669772 (21.3lb/hr flow rating) approx $30 - $60 used per set of four on ebay Fuel injector pigtails http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/fuel-injector-pigtails-bosch-ev6-p-133.html $9.50 each (quant 4 req) Saab 900 2.0L 16V 86-90 fuel pressure regulator Bosch 0-280-160-256 (43psi or 3bar regulated pressure) http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=390300662326 $49.95 GM air intake and coolant temp sensors and wiring pigtails used sensors and new pigtails: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320703397873 $27.50 Megasquirt 1 EFI ECU http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/megasquirti-programmable-efi-system-pcb30-assembled-unit-p-56.html $346.00 DIYAutoTune charges $50 to mod the ECU for EDIS so it will work out of the box. I would also suggest a $28 mod they do to support a pulse-width modulated idle control valve. Otherwise adding the mods to support these is fairly simple. Megasquirt wiring harness http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/1239-megasquirt-wiring-harness-ms1-ms2-ms3-ready-p-43.html $69.00 Now if the EDIS crank-fired ignition were done at the same time and I would strongly advise this then the crank sensor bracket & toothed wheel adapter would be needed as well as the following EDIS parts: EDIS 4 coil, vr sensor, module, and wiring pigtails http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110691598063 $49.95 The only major Ford EDIS part that is not correct in the above auction is the toothed wheel. The above auction includes the wrong toothed wheel. The one I am using is off of a Ford Taurus 3.0L V6 (NOT the DOHC Duratech motor). This does not mean the toothed wheel in the auction could never work but just would not work perfectly with the bracket & adapter I designed. Last edited on 06-08-2011 12:21 am by StevenD57 |
|||||||||
|
Ramp Member
|
Don't mean to hijack but wondering why its not relatively easy to use the EFI and/or Turbo system(s) off an Esprit - aren't they the same 907's ? |
|||||||||
|
subwoofer Member
|
EFI: yes, that could be done, but most of those are 20 or more years old already for NA cars - with all the consequences that entails as far as reliability goes. If you want to go that route, I would definitely recommend getting fresh components. Turbo? Good luck fitting one. The Esprit turbo sits just above the bellhousing, you can hardly get you hand between the bellhousing and the firewall on the JH and ask anyone who has tried taking the exhaust header off how much space there is in that area of the car (or volume if you are a nitpicker :-) ). I guess you could fit an Eaton blower if you really wanted to, but I think you will be breaking new ground - with all the associated cost. -- Joachim Last edited on 06-19-2011 09:11 pm by subwoofer |
|||||||||
|
StevenD57 Member
|
Ramp wrote: Don't mean to hijack but wondering why its not relatively easy to use the EFI and/or Turbo system(s) off an Esprit - aren't they the same 907's ?I can think of tons of reasons. Here are a few off of the top of my head. The 907 motor was first released in 1972 - 1973 and was made through approximately 1980 when Lotus first released the 2.2L motors. During that 1972 thru 1980 time frame there were lots of running changes made to even the 2.0L 907 motors like cams, compression ratios, and port size / shape alterations. Then with the turbo 910 2.2L motors the number of changes really went through the roof. The fuel injected motors were first released with the 1986 - 1987 HCI motors and was built around the Bosch mechanical CIS type of fuel injection. In 1989 they first went to fully electronic fuel injection based around GM Delco bits. Both the Bosch CIS and the Delco EFI systems are closed black box systems that are not really able to be re-tuned by an individual. They were developed for the 2.2L 910 motor that had 10 - 15 years of development beyond the 2.0L 907 motors used in the Jensen-Healey. Both the Bosch CIS and Delco systems were really complex systems with lots off add-on vacuum and emissions bits. These were limited production cars and as a result the parts are fairly rare and when available the parts are REALLY expensive. I could probably think of lots more reasons with more time but I think these are enough. Last edited on 06-19-2011 09:21 pm by StevenD57 |
|||||||||
|
Ramp Member
|
Just asking . . . - appreciate the info -that's actually what I was looking for. If you read the question correctly, the assumption I made was it's "not" easy - otherwise everyone wouldn't be going through the Rube Goldberg process of bits from each bin. But I did want to know "why" it wasn't a good route - i.e., there had to be reasons not to use Lotus systems. -- another aside, I'm glade there are people on this forum with good technical knowledge. I don't really care if the stereo works or what speakers they used - as some forums. Last edited on 06-20-2011 12:29 am by Ramp |
|||||||||
|
JodyKerr Member
|
Ramp, One other item we're working with here is cost. I have priced the original lotus EFI systems, and they are extremely pricey. Jody |
|||||||||
|
subwoofer Member
|
Guys! Guys! Look what I found! http://dynaformance.com/index.php These guys are making IDA48-lookalike throttle bodies with integrated (and hidden) injectors! I really can't remember if the DCOE and the IDA share mounting flange bolt patterns, but if they do our (at least my) prayers are answered. Stealth installation indeed possible! -- Joachim |
|||||||||
|
subwoofer Member
|
So close, yet so far away... IDA and DCOE do not have the same interface, DCOE and IDF does. The IDA barrels are roughly 30mm farther apart. -- Joachim |
|||||||||
|
Ramp Member
|
Did you speak with them about developing something for the JH's ? |
|||||||||
|
subwoofer Member
|
I sent them an email yesterday, we'll see what happens. -- Joachim |
|||||||||
|
Jensenman Member
|
As one of the 'interested guys who disappeared', let's just say things have been busy. ;-/ But the EFI project is definitely in the top two or three of my upcoming time killers. thanks for all the pics of the injector bung install, that answers several questions for me. Also, about the fuel rail clearance: there is 'D' shaped aluminum extrusion available which can be machined for the top of the injectors to slip into, that could probably save you 1" of hood clearance. |
|||||||||
|
StevenD57 Member
|
It turns out I did not have a clearance problem with the fuel rail. Once I got it on the car I discovered that there was an inch or two above that point on the fuel rail I was worried about when I took the photos over at Dave's old pace. I have ordered and received the D shaped rail in 18inch pieces for Jody's and my second car build. The price for the rail and four injector bungs was very reasonable. |
|||||||||
|
t4brew Member
|
Jenvey has a set of DCOE throttle bodies: http://www.jenvey.co.uk/home/twin-throttle-bodies/twin-bodies-dcoe-style-118mm-long/jenvey-dynamics/tb-body-40-50mm-pair-tbpxxi  Lotusbits sells a kit that includes the Jenvey throttle bodies and engine management system: http://www.lotusbits.com/upgrades_fuel_injection.htm 
 I am looking into using a throttle body, manifold, fuel rail and engine management system from a Lotus Esprit S4S on my 912 engine. The same engine management system was also used on the GM Quad 4 2.3 L engine and I plan to use a chip from a Quad 4 W41 engine as a starting point. The Quad 4 also used the same sensors as the S4S so parts are easy to get (other than the throttle body, fuel rail and manifold). Jerry Last edited on 11-02-2011 09:45 pm by t4brew |
|||||||||
|
subwoofer Member
|
I am well aware of all of the above, but the visible fuel rails make them a no-go for me, I'm afraid. I wonder if the 907 will idle properly (as bad/well as on 45mm carbs) with outboard mounted injectors (racing style)? With a bit of fiddling it should be possible to mount the injectors to the air horns, and with fully sequential injection it should be possible to time the injection to when the air is actually moving. The fuel rail and injectors would be completely hidden inside the air box. I'll see what happens after I get the MS3 running in the Syncro Vanagon I just bought. -- Joachim Last edited on 11-02-2011 10:14 pm by subwoofer |
|||||||||
|
StevenD57 Member
|
t4brew wrote: Jenvey has a set of DCOE throttle bodies:GAH! that is over $3000USD for that kit. I don't think I have any more than $700 - $800 in my setup. VASTLY cheaper and I bet works just as well. Three weekends ago I drove my Jensen-Healey with the EFI setup to Las Vegas Nevada and back from Phoenix Arizona. I went there for the national Lotus Owners Gathering. This is a 5 - 6 hour trip each way and the car performed flawlessly except for a tire vibration issue on the way back home. The engine however ran just fine and was quite lively with very reasonable temperatures as well. |
|||||||||
|
t4brew Member
|
Hi Joachim, Sorry, I had not realized that you were looking for a throttle body without a visible fuel rail. Interesting idea to mount the injectors to the air horns. The S4S secondary fuel injectors are mounted in front of the throttle bodies but are only used at high rpms. Could you hide a standard throttle body with injectors inside the air box? Then have a set of DCOE's without throttle plates or venturis between the air box and manifold to keep the "stock" look. This would keep the injectors behind the throttle body which would keep the throttle plates dry but would increase the distance between the throttle plates and the intake valve. Jerry |
|||||||||
|
t4brew Member
|
StevenD57 wrote: t4brew wrote:I had the same reaction to that system. So far I have acquired the ECM, chip, harness, throttle body, fuel rail, manifold, injectors, fuel pressure regulator, TPS, IAC valve,MAP sensor, coolant sensor, knock sensor, crank trigger wheel, trigger sensor and 02 sensor for $800. I also spent $20 for a chip definition file so I can modify the settings on the chip. I have already made changes for things like the fuel cutoff RPM, fuel return RPM, radiator fan temp on, radiator fan temp off, injector pulse constant for the S4S injectors and the speed sensor conversion. The GM ECM is very tunable. Tuning the VE and spark advance tables will take some time. The Quad 4 W41 spark advance table seems to be very close to the Lotus 912 advance curve. The VE tables may take some time to get right but should not be too difficult. I still have to purchase a high pressure fuel pump and the additional fuel line. Hopefully I can stay under $1000 for the complete system.Jenvey has a set of DCOE throttle bodies:GAH! that is over $3000USD for that kit. I don't think I have any more than $700 - $800 in my setup. VASTLY cheaper and I bet works just as well. Three weekends ago I drove my Jensen-Healey with the EFI setup to Las Vegas Nevada and back from Phoenix Arizona. I went there for the national Lotus Owners Gathering. This is a 5 - 6 hour trip each way and the car performed flawlessly except for a tire vibration issue on the way back home. The engine however ran just fine and was quite lively with very reasonable temperatures as well. Let me also add that now that I have a much better understanding of what it takes to put together an EFI system I understand why kits like the one that Lotusbits sell cost so much. I am sure Mike Taylor at Lotusbits has thousands of dollars of development, dyno and tuning time in that kit and since he will only sell a few of them he has to price them that high to make any money. Last edited on 11-03-2011 12:44 am by t4brew |
|||||||||
|
StevenD57 Member
|
t4brew wrote:I had the same reaction to that system. So far I have acquired the ECM, chip, harness, throttle body, fuel rail, manifold, injectors, fuel pressure regulator, TPS, IAC valve,MAP sensor, coolant sensor, knock sensor, crank trigger wheel, trigger sensor and 02 sensor for $800. I also spent $20 for a chip definition file so I can modify the settings on the chip. I have already made changes for things like the fuel cutoff RPM, fuel return RPM, radiator fan temp on, radiator fan temp off, injector pulse constant for the S4S injectors and the speed sensor conversion. The GM ECM is very tunable. Tuning the VE and spark advance tables will take some time. The Quad 4 W41 spark advance table seems to be very close to the Lotus 912 advance curve. The VE tables may take some time to get right but should not be too difficult. I still have to purchase a high pressure fuel pump and the additional fuel line. Hopefully I can stay under $1000 for the complete system.The TunerStudio software for the Megasquirt ECU has an autotune feature that I have found to be very helpful for dialing in everything except the WOT part of the VE tables. |
|||||||||
|
t4brew Member
|
StevenD57 wrote: t4brew wrote:I looked into the Megasquirt ECU and saw the autotune feature, that will save you a bunch of time. To tune the GM ECU I will need to need to drive and datalog the 02, MAP, RPM, and advance values and based on those modify the VE tables. It would be much easier if the GM ECU had an autotune feature.I had the same reaction to that system. So far I have acquired the ECM, chip, harness, throttle body, fuel rail, manifold, injectors, fuel pressure regulator, TPS, IAC valve,MAP sensor, coolant sensor, knock sensor, crank trigger wheel, trigger sensor and 02 sensor for $800. I also spent $20 for a chip definition file so I can modify the settings on the chip. I have already made changes for things like the fuel cutoff RPM, fuel return RPM, radiator fan temp on, radiator fan temp off, injector pulse constant for the S4S injectors and the speed sensor conversion. The GM ECM is very tunable. Tuning the VE and spark advance tables will take some time. The Quad 4 W41 spark advance table seems to be very close to the Lotus 912 advance curve. The VE tables may take some time to get right but should not be too difficult. I still have to purchase a high pressure fuel pump and the additional fuel line. Hopefully I can stay under $1000 for the complete system.The TunerStudio software for the Megasquirt ECU has an autotune feature that I have found to be very helpful for dialing in everything except the WOT part of the VE tables. |
|||||||||
|
StevenD57 Member
|
I am gathering spare US style ZS intake manifolds to do a batch of the EFI conversion setups. I expect to offer these intakes with fuel injector bungs welded in, fuel rail, throttle bodies and possibly fuel injectors. This would be a near bolt on for conversion to fuel injection on a Jensen-Healey. The high pressure fuel supply and return stuff and the electronic ECU would be the other required bits. I also have a guy who specializes in making wiring harnesses and he seems interested in helping with some sort of engine harness for this as well. I want to get a batch of 6 or 7 manifolds together so my fabricator could do the machine work setup one time for a group of them in an effort to get the fabrication costs down. |
|||||||||
|
Jensen Healey Super Moderator
|
I have two ZS manifolds for you, gratis. Send me a PM with your address. Kurt |
|||||||||
|
StevenD57 Member
|
Latest photos of the modified 907 intakes showing fuel injection additions:     These photos show the fuel rail with high pressure (300psi) fuel lines with factory style banjo fittings, the throttle position sensor, the twin 2.125inch throttle bodies, and the way the fuel injectors mount into the intake so the fuel is sprayed directly down the intake port at the back side of the intake valve. I ended up using some of the original linkage pieces from the OEM Zenith-Stromberg carb setup to properly connect the throttle shafts of the twin throttle bodies together while allowing for adjustment or any slight mis-alignment of the throttle bodies. Plus the original throttle cable should just hock right up with little or no modification. |
|||||||||
|
rossjfox Member
|
At the Jensen East 2012 Steve Duchene gave a well received presentation on crank fired ignition and fuel injection of the Jensen Healey. This prompted much conversation and exploration of the possibilities. And for me personally, many questions as to the car I am building, and prompts for information about it… I too have been building a fuel injected Jensen Healey. My car is not different from Steve’s in theory, and in fact there are many steps I took to achieve a running car which I could not have done without Steve’s help and guidance. However, my car is a bit different in execution, using all new components which can be purchased and replaced easily. First a word of background. The project I am working on was started about 15yrs ago by the car’s owner (I’m simply acting as the mechanic trying to finish the project). At that time, the engine lost compression and a decision was made to rebuild the engine to 2.2 liter specification and hot 104/107 cams. In an effort to improve drivability given the aggressive set up, it was decided to pursue fuel injection, and by default, crank fired ignition. (You can have crank fired ignition without injection, but not the other way around.) All the components were purchased, the engine rebuild completed, and then the car sat in the garage until this past winter when I took possession of the car and began rebuilding. Here’s what we’re using and what’s been done. This is not a plug and play project. While the components are available off the shelf, the putting of those components together requires a bit of re-engineering of the car. Nothing outlandish, but at least work and time. 1. Electromotive CFI and fuel injection. (http://www.electromotive-inc.com/) This is a TEC2 unit, which was state of the art when purchased in 1998, but for which electromotive now sells far more advanced units. Nonetheless, it includes the coils and allows for laptop control of the fuel injection maps. It interprets inputs from the following sensors: crank position sensor, throttle position sensor, coolant temp sensor, air intake temperature sensor, manifold air pressure sensor, and O2 sensor. Outputs include: tachometer, high pressure fuel pump control, check engine light, and of course the fuel injectors. Electromotive is the source of all the sensors, injectors, etc. 2. Throttle bodies and fuel rail from TWM Induction (now a subsidiary of Borla Induction, http://www.borla.com/products/induction/). These are Weber DCOE style throttle bodies and are engineered to accept a variety of fuel injectors and allows easy mounting of the critical throttle position sensor. The entire setup bolts to the standard Dellorto intake manifold and will accept the standard air-box and filter arrangement. 3. Vacuum regulated fuel pressure regulator. 4. Rebuilt tachometer from West Valley Auto Electronics to work with the output from the TEC2. 5. Swirl pot / surge fuel tank mounted in the trunk, fed by the standard low pressure fuel pump to allow a source of fuel for the high pressure pump without accidentally sucking air due to slosh as is apt to happen in the main tank. 6. New 5/16 steel fuel lines, both delivery and return. These follow the path of the original line and the vacuum return line, but for convenience, the direction of flow is reversed. 7. Wiring harness. This was an undertaking as the harness was built from scratch, although I’m told with newer Electromotive systems, readymade wiring harnesses are available. 8. Mounting of the toothed wheel and crank position sensor. This required a bit of engineering. The toothed wheel was installed by the engine builder. The sensor mount I made myself using sheet steel. It’s rigid enough, but not nearly as nice as Steve’s, whose is a work of art. A word about the manifold air pressure sensor vs. a mass airflow sensor. The electromotive unit will accept input from either. All modern vehicles use mass air flow. It’s probably better and more accurate, but requires tight control of air flow. In other words, absolutely no leaks. Manifold air pressure sensing requires the same, but by design is a more forgiving and thus we chose it for our application. In a word, it’s much easier to install. As of about 4 or 5 weeks ago, we have a running car. By entering basic parameters into the Electromotive computer, injection and timing maps are created which will allow the engine to start. Very rough tuning can then be done using the rich / lean meter seen on a connected laptop computer. But to tune it properly beyond that, requires a dyno and experience. The plan is to bring the car to a tuning shop and tune it on the dyno. My understanding is that this is the only way to do it. The attached pictures I think tell the story well. Hope this helps anyone thinking of taking on such a project. Ross Video of engine running: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVi6NEfqAmk&feature=youtu.be Engine compartment: http://www.jensenhealey.com/images/RF/Injection_1.jpg http://www.jensenhealey.com/images/RF/Injection_6.jpg Crank position sensor and toothed wheel: http://www.jensenhealey.com/images/RF/Injection_7.jpg Dashboard: http://www.jensenhealey.com/images/RF/Injection_2.jpg Slosh tank and fuel lines: http://www.jensenhealey.com/images/RF/Injection_4.jpg http://www.jensenhealey.com/images/RF/Injection_5.jpg http://www.jensenhealey.com/images/RF/Injection_3.jpg |
|||||||||
|
StevenD57 Member
|
Great write up Ross! Thanks for the pictures and video. Did you have a wide band O2 sensor installed? BTW, with other engine management ECUs, it is possible to have fuel injection with standard ignition. Also as I have told Ross the tuning part with the Megasquirt ECU and TunerStudio software is much easier because of the autotune and data logging features of the TunerStudio software and Megasquirt ECU. My installation only really needed a little dyno time to tune the wide open throttle part of the fuel map at the very top of the RPM range for the engine. Last edited on 06-16-2012 04:15 pm by StevenD57 |
|||||||||
|
rossjfox Member
|
Hi Steve, Thanks! Yes, I forgot to mention the O2 sensor installed in the exhaust. This allows immediate feedback of rich / lean mixture. Ross |
|||||||||
|
subwoofer Member
|
Reviving this old thread for some possibly great news! I have at regular intervals been nagging the people at EightStack (http://eightstack.com/) for a DCOE/DHLA sidedraft version of their stealth throttle bodies. This time they replied that they are working on it, and are expecting release around summer next year! -- Joachim |
|||||||||
|
Frank Schwartz Member
|
I need a spare Stromberg intake. If you have one or decide not to modify tht one, I'd be interested. |
|||||||||
|
Jensen Healey Super Moderator
|
Hi Frank, I have a spare intake manifold for you. I sent you a PM. |
|||||||||
